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Lord Ahmed: My Lords, I will restrict my remarks to Schedule 10, as have many of your Lordships. This is a very serious Bill covering a lot of areas, but I too shall restrict my comments to the provisions on hatred against persons on racial or religious grounds. First, I thank the Government for having the courage to include this new offence in the Bill. I acknowledge all of the work that the Government have done to address this serious anomaly in our law, both in previous reports, including the University of Derby report, and in Select Committee and other reports.

I realise that many of your Lordships have spoken in opposition to these proposals on the basis that they could suppress our country's great history of freedom of speech, by gagging comedians or restricting legitimate criticism of a religion or particular community. In my opinion, it is none of the above. The provision is about protecting a community from the fascist and racist element of our society who are now targeting the Muslim community. Islamophobia has become a contemporary form of racism. The BNP has openly attacked the Muslim community on its website and racists have delivered leaflets, as in the famous case of Merton. It is na-ve to suggest that this new offence is electioneering by the Government. It is a genuine attempt to protect British citizens who have been victims of this heinous crime.

This is not about protecting religious beliefs, as many of your Lordships have said; it is about protecting believers against hatred that often leads to violence. Many reports, including the latest by the Vienna-based International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights, state that there is an increase of violence against Muslims in Europe, particularly since 9/11.

In May 2002, a man was convicted of inciting religious hatred when distributing leaflets which stated that, "The Jewish people must die". At the time of the offences, the police reported attacks on synagogues. However, if such leaflets were directed at Muslims, the current incitement to racial hatred law would not afford them any protection.

There are decades of examples in which things that were once acceptable are now no longer tolerable. When I was a young boy, my uncle took me to a circus where animals performed and entertained. Last week, I took my granddaughter to the circus and not a single animal was used. It is now deemed cruel to use animals
 
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in the circus. In the 1960s and 1970s, when men praised women's bodies, it was a compliment to do so. Today it would be sexual harassment and offensive.

In the 1970s and 1980s it was fashionable to joke about the Irish and the Asians. Today it would be offensive and grotesque to use that type of language. In the 1980s and 1990s people openly talked about the gay community as "queers", but last weekend the Chief Constable of North Wales apologised for using such language. It proves that society has moved on. I hope that, when this Bill leaves your Lordships' House, inciting hatred against Muslims, Hindus and Christians will become not only unacceptable but also unlawful.

My noble friend Lord Alli spoke earlier with passion about the protection of Muslims and gay people. Let me assure him that I will seek protection for every gay and lesbian member of the community as much as I do for every Muslim, Hindu, Christian and Buddhist.

I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, is not in her place. I heard her speech from my office. I am very sorry that she used very strong language. She said something like, "When people do not feel comfortable in a country, they can leave". I take exception to that type of language. I do not think that that is incitement to hatred. However, people should not have to leave the country simply because they do not agree with laws or because they want to make our system more equal and fair. I am sorry that the noble Baroness is not here. I would have loved to hear her opinion on this issue.

For some reason there is a popular belief among some Christian groups that are campaigning vigorously against Schedule 10 that it could criminalise Christian preachers for expressing opinions such as that salvation can be found only through a relationship with Jesus Christ and that other religions do not lead to God. In my view that is neither offensive nor inciting hatred against any other. To me, that is a religious belief. As a Muslim we do not fear legitimate criticism of our faith or our beliefs. As the noble Lord, Lord Baker, mentioned in his speech, Islam has to accommodate itself to western liberal society. This is not about the accommodation of any religion, but about the acceptance, tolerance and understanding of all in our diverse society today.

Because of our ever increasing Islamophobia, young British Muslims are being isolated and disenfranchised. A small section of our youth even feel disaffected and that they are second class citizens. I accept that no one in this country is a second class citizen. More than that, no one should feel himself to be a second class citizen.

The proposal does not prevent or put a check on the ability to criticise or ridicule or to have fundamental disagreements with the precepts of any religion. We all know that any modern democracy deserves the right to have a robust and healthy debate. I believe that this legislation allows that.

The challenges to this House are these. Can we continue to allow the demonisation of a section of British society? Can we allow the modern form of
 
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racism which exists in the form of Islamophobia to continue? Can we allow the fascists to attack openly and to create hatred against the community of faith?

Baroness Cox: My Lords, while I support most of this Bill, I, like so many other Members of your Lordships' House, strongly oppose those aspects relating to incitement to religious hatred. My primary concern is the threat to one of our most cherished freedoms, freedom of speech. There is a real danger that this legislation will inhibit criticism of religion, affirmation of religious belief and satirical or comic discussions, despite the Government's assurances to the opposite effect.

Like my noble friend Lord Chan, I am grateful for the time which the Attorney-General kindly gave to explain the Government's position. But in the real world, we are already witnessing symptoms of religious intolerance, intimidation, inhibition of expression, censorship and self-censorship. My examples relate to the Muslim community, so perhaps I may emphasise that I am not Islamophobic—rather the reverse. I have worked with Indonesia's former President Wahid to launch an interfaith organisation to promote post-conflict reconciliation. And just last month, I participated in a conference hosted by the Islamic State University in Jakarta to promote interfaith education.

My examples relate to Islam and to some members of the Muslim community because much of the pressure for this legislation has come from them. I understand their concerns, which were extremely well highlighted by the noble Lords, Lord Avebury and Lord Ahmed. I believe that the proposed legislation may have effects opposite to those intended, a point well made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and the noble Lord, Lord Baker.

Complaints have already been made to the police, instigated by members of the Muslim community, which illustrate problems which could escalate if this law is passed. These complaints reflect certain aspects of Islamic beliefs held passionately by many Muslims: for them, a Christian statement of belief in the divinity of Christ is seen as blasphemous and offensive. In traditional Islamic law, blasphemy is deemed such a serious offence that it may incur the death penalty, as do statements which may be deemed to be critical of Islam and the Prophet.

A number of serious commentators and academics have already been stigmatised as "Islamophobic" by inclusion in a list called the Islamophobes Awards of the Year. They include Polly Toynbee and my noble and right reverend friend Lord Carey of Clifton. Neither of those wrote or spoke irresponsibly or inaccurately, but both have been subjected to this hurtful labelling, with its potentially damaging and intimidating effects.

I also point to examples of attempts to stifle the freedom to preach, as illustrated in the following letter:

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I also refer to a similar experience related by a former policeman in the north of England which has already been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Chan. I would like to give a little more detail and I quote from a report:

In a subsequent letter, Police Inspector Hall acknowledged:

Despite this exoneration, responsible citizens had suffered a gratuitous ordeal, illustrating the general point that once a complaint is made, the police need to decide whether and how to act. The police cannot be experts on religion and they will find themselves in difficult situations, often subject to pressure to take action. If they feel obliged to respond, they may require entry into the offending person's home and/or office. They may remove papers, files and computers and subject that person to an array of highly traumatic procedures which harm their work and their reputation. The very thought of being subjected to such initial stages of police investigation is likely to inhibit freedom of expression.

Therefore, I believe that one of the most insidious dangers inherent in this legislation is self-censorship. Academics, journalists, writers, religious leaders—


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