Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Hunt of Wirral: My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate, with more than 40 speeches. I pay
14 Mar 2005 : Column 1186
tribute to all noble Lords who have participated for their valuable contributions. We all await the Minister's response.
During the passage of the Bill, both here and in another place, the opposition parties, unusually but heart-warmingly, have spoken virtually as one. Recognising the need for the new agency that lies at the heart of the Bill, we have all done our best to give it a fair wind. As my noble friend Lord Baker of Dorking put it, its time has come.
Criminals are now more sophisticated than ever, and the stakes are higher, as the noble Earl, Lord Rosslyn, pointed out. This demands a robust response. This united front across the Opposition and the Government Benches does, I hope, send a very clear message to those who would transgress.
None the less, in broadly welcoming the Bill on behalf of the Conservative Party, I must put down one or two markers that we regard as non-negotiable. No one will be surprised to hear that the principal one is in relation to the proposed new offence of doing anything that might stir up racial or religious hatred in anyone. I shall return to that issue.
Our other main concern, which has been shared by several noble Lords, is that the title of the Bill should be so misleading. Rather than confining itself to embodying a clearly focused and robust set of proposals which deal with serious organised crime, the Bill seems to bring together a random, gallimaufry of measures that look like the end of term sweepings from the Home Secretary's cupboard. The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, referred to it as a portmanteau. I prefer the Anglo-Saxon word to the French word, but I recognise that it is a good description. He struck some terror in our hearts by promising more and more measures in Committee, which is possible under this enormously lengthy long title.
The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, reminded us of the important point made by his noble friend Lady Harris of Richmond when she referred to the Bill as tagging on a whole multitude of other measures. The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, referred to it as being really two separate Bills. My noble friend Lord Selsdon referred to it as his Christmas stocking.
What are we to make of this? It has been a tale of two debates. We have had an extensive debate about the proposed offence of inciting religious hatred; and another debate about the remainder of the Bill which includes the most important part of the Bill, but I shall come to that in a few moments.
At the start of the debate, my noble friend enumerated some of the more bizarre measures. I also have concerns about what has been left out of the Bill which I believe are missed opportunities to strengthen the fight against organised crime. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, argued persuasively in favour of one of the most important missed opportunities: that relating to intercept evidence. It would better enable charges to be brought against individuals if all intercept evidence were to be made admissible in court subject to certain caveats. I thought that he was very persuasive on that.
14 Mar 2005 : Column 1187
Might it not also have been encouraging for Ministers to take this legislative opportunity to announce that they will introduce 24-hour fully manned surveillance and embarkation controls? That would deal a real body blow to terrorists and people smugglers. But that, sadly, is another missed opportunity.
To return to the Serious Organised Crime Agency, as has been pointed out by several noble Lords, organised crime predominates in those illegal activities which most disrupt and damage the fabric of our society. If we wish to protect our way of life we have to be ready and willing to take the hard-edged decisions necessary to take on the organised gangs and win. That is why the Conservative Party so strongly supports the creation of the new SOCA. There are, however, serious questions still to be resolved, not least its independence, as the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, pointed out; its need to work closely with local police forces, as the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, pointed out, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, with all her experience of police authorities, and others. To all those points must be added parliamentary scrutiny of SOCA, but they are practical matters rather than profound questions of principle. I believe that we all want to see SOCA established as soon as possible and we want to see it succeed in what is a vitally important task.
However, we heed the words of the noble Lord, Lord Imbert, with all his experience, when he points out the need to have true independence and not political control. I must say that he was very persuasive in his job application, in seeking to be part of the agency, which was echoed by the noble Viscount, Lord Slim. The agency has the potential to be highly successful, but we must get its powers and status and officers right, and working for SOCA must become a reasonably attractive proposition. The noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, was right to remind us of the importance and independence of sworn police officers. Those are vital issues which we shall deal with in Committee.
Another aspect of the Bill which to many fair-minded people may seem disproportionate is the whole question of demonstrating in Parliament Square. The noble Lord, Lord Desai, said that it was virtually like saying, "Demonstrate anywhere but please not here". It is a sort of parliamentary form of nimby. The noble Lord, Lord Plant of Highfield, came forward with a whizzing idea, which he had discussed with the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, that there ought to be a sort of parking meter system for the right to demonstrate. The only problem with that is that most of those who want to demonstrate would love to be clamped. As that is the ultimate deterrent, I am not sure that the parking meter is a very good idea.
Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, surely the ultimate deterrent is to be towed away?
Lord Hunt of Wirral: My Lords, I believe that that applies to property not to people. At least, it does at the moment, although given this Government it may well apply to people too.
Other important points have been raised on the Scottish dimension by my noble friend the Duke of Montrose and the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. The noble
14 Mar 2005 : Column 1188
Lord, Lord Pendry, raised some very interesting issues on the question of regulation and overregulation. I am always reminded that one should keep asking questions of the Security Industry Authority, for example, about who is regulating the regulators. It is a valid question to raise.
The issue of animal rights activists formed a key part of the debate, and we heard important speeches from the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson of Market Rasen, and the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, about the vital contribution of animal research. My noble friend Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior came up with some impressive facts demonstrating the crucial nature of that research, reinforced by the authoritative speech of my noble friend Lord Selbourne and the practical experiences of the noble Lord, Lord Drayson, as they demonstrated that it is just not possible to do without animal testing at this important time. It could be argued that the Bill does too little, too late, but it is none the less a welcome move in the right direction.
We now come to the part of the Bill that relates to religious hatred. This House is right to stand its ground on issues of fundamental importance to civil liberties in this country, and we do so again in respect of Schedule 10 to the Bill. The Government's stated objective of clamping down on religious hatred and those who propagate it admittedly has a meretricious appeal. I should tell the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, that we stand side by side with him in protecting all communities against extremists. The noble Lord, Lord Alli, made a very important speech, as did the noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, in putting forward a strong case for Clause 124. Other noble Lords, such as the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, wanted to send a clear and positive signal to the Muslim community.
I agree with noble Lords that incitement to hatred is indeed generally loathsome and particularly so when innate fears of other races or religions are being manipulated in trying to create a climate of insecurity, intimidation and violence. But as the right reverend Prelate reminded us, it is vitally important to keep a balance in this debate. I was struck by the fact that no one really answered the very persuasive speech made by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who echoed a statement that he made in his article in the Times today, that these provisions are more likely to stir up discord than resolve it. As evidence of the existing protection, he quoted the conviction of Mark Norwood.
The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, raised serious technical problems with the proposed offence and the almost impossible task that it would present for the jury, particularly looking at Articles 9, 10(1), 10(2) and 17 of the Human Rights Act. My noble friend Lord Baker of Dorking reminded us of all the problems of obscene publications. But no one answered my noble and learned friend's points about the existing case in which there was a conviction.
We had a very important contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I would have liked to hear him speak much longer, because I thought he was expounding a very important point. But I bow to the Whips all the
14 Mar 2005 : Column 1189
time; having been one for so many years, I pay tribute to their handling of a very difficult task. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, was seeking to find a way through the problems. We await his narrow and carefully tailored amendments in Committee that will, no doubt, avoid what he described as "unintended adverse consequences".
Having looked at the proposed offence, I think that it is disproportionate and fundamentally counterproductive. If anything, it is likely to create more resentment and hatred in people's hearts, not less. In saying that, I find myself in a remarkably broad coalition that includes writers, comedians, all the main Opposition parties, many religious bodies and, of course, many speakers in this debate. It is utter sophistry for Ministers to argue that this legislation, once enacted, would not adversely affect freedom of speech and, in particular, freedom of comment and humour. As the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, said, of course it will.
As the noble Lord, Lord Chan, pointed out, there are no safeguards in the Bill. So, if it becomes law, then anyone will have committed an offence if they say, publish or proliferate anything that is,
"likely to be heard or seen by any person in whom it is likely to stir up racial or religious hatred".
The very term "stir up" troubles me, as it does my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern and the noble Lord, Lord Lester. Perhaps it is intended to be demoticlegalese supplanted by a more modern idiom that may be more readily understood. But it is dangerously vague. Does it imply the creation of hatred, the stimulation of latent hatred, merely the aggravation of existing hatred or all three? Such language, open as it is to interpretation and misinterpretation, is wholly inappropriate for an Act of Parliament. As the noble Baroness, Lady D'Souza, stressed, there is the danger of mischievous cases. With all her experience in fighting censorship in so many forms, she would know.
This clause also subtly shifts the burden of proof. There is no need to demonstrate intention on the part of the person accused. It seeks, as my noble friend Lord Baker put it, to criminalise a state of mind. All that has to be proved is that there was someone in the room, library, theatre or wherever, however unbalanced or irrational they may be, who might have these unpleasant sentiments stirred up in them. In effect, performers or orators would be blamed for the prejudices or moral deficiencies of their audiences. I regret to inform, in particular, the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, that this is a lawyer's dream and a citizen's nightmare. If this measure becomes lawand my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway listed all the procedural problemsit is axiomatic that people will feel constrained to err on the side of curbing their free expression.
As the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood, pointed out, the offence has only to be perceived, and so the police would soon be busy preparing submissions to be considered by the Attorney-General.
14 Mar 2005 : Column 1190
Salman Rushdie needs no one to lecture him about the possible consequences of causing offence on religious grounds. As he so sagely put it, this law would be interpreted by faith groups as,
Where there is offenceand can there be a more nebulous concept?there is every chance of the law being triggered, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said about the effect of the Human Rights Act.
There is a better way. I found myself agreeing with almost every word said by my noble friend Lady Flather; in particular, with her vision of an inclusive Britain. I remember the early days of my political life when I was fighting for the right of Ugandan Asians to come and live in our communities: we have been grateful to them for the richness that they have supplied in our society. I have always believed in a multi-racial society, in an inclusive Britain. We have to speak to each other, understand each other and ensure that we can live together in harmony.
Before coming to the debate I attended the Commonwealth Day observance. We heard a number of religious leaders raise the question of education and understanding. I quote a young representative of the Hindu community, Bimal Patel:
"Conflict, physical or verbal, often starts when people of different beliefs do not listen to each other. They talk but there is no conversation".
I regret that if this offence in its present form becomes law, the proposal will inflict a body blow on our right as citizens to have such conversations. We have now to decide whether we wish to live in a free society. It is no exaggeration to say that in confronting this piece of legislation we are having, in the words of Salman Rushdie, to
This is a battle that we must win.
Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |