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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, this has been a most intriguing and worthwhile debate. I have listened with great care since 3.7 p.m. to all that has been said. I should formally make a declaration of interest, because like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, I am a member of the Lawyers' Christian Fellowship, the Thomas More Society and various other Christian and ecumenical inter-faith associations, not least for many years being a Shabbas goy in my local synagogue. So I come to the debate with a modicum of understanding of some of the issues.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his support and that of his party for the creation of the new agency. With some temerity I remind him and the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, that the majority of us look forward to our Christmas stocking with a sense of delight and gratitude for the gifts that are about to be bestowed on us with such generosity. It is in that spirit that we should look at the Bill because that which is contained in it is all good.
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During the debate we have discussed a number of issues. I shall try to deal with them in order, but I am conscious that we have had a seven-hour debate and slightly over 20 minutes is given to me for doing that. The issues include SOCA; the intimidation of persons connected with animal research; the incitement to religious hatred; trespass on designated sites; airguns; intercept evidence; the UN Convention against Corruption; the Serious Fraud Office; and Parliament Squareto mention only the main issues.
I turn to some of the technical issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. I will not be able to address each and every issue, but I shall deal with two of the main points. He mentioned the parliamentary scrutiny of the code of practice in Clause 11. Clause 11 provides for codes of practice to be laid before Parliament. They are not subject to any parliamentary procedure. That really mirrors the position with the codes of practice issued to chief officers under the provisions of the Police Reform Act 2002, and we intend to continue that format.
The noble Lord referred to key statistics on power of arrest. I gently suggest to him that the figures are not quite as sad as he would have us believe. There were 1.33 million arrests in 200304; but in 2003, 738,000 persons or vehicles were stopped, 15 per cent down from 200203. The 7 per cent of stops and searches in 200304 that resulted in arrests was down from 8.7 per cent the previous year.
One of the major issues raised by a number of noble Lordsincluding the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, my noble friend Lady Henig, the noble Earl, Lord Rosslyn, and the noble Viscount, Lord Slimwas SOCA's relationship with police forces. SOCA is about building and strengthening links with the police service, not weakening them. We fully realise that SOCA's success, for example in deterring and disrupting criminal gangs, depends on effective integration and co-operation between it and the police services. The regular exchange of information and intelligence between SOCA and local police forces in both directions will be an essential component of that success. The new agency will continue to work closely with the police service on intelligence and operations to ensure that there is an effective link between the agency's efforts at the national level and the work being done by police forces at the local level. We should remember that the majority of people migrating to the service will be those already in NCS and NCIS. We do not need to have any great degree of concern about pulling people out of local forces.
The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, questioned whether a designated person will be subject to the duties and obligations of a constable as well as the powers and privileges. Where any police powers are conferred on a member of SOCA staff, the exercise of any such powers will, subject to only very limited exceptions, be subject to the same limitations that apply to constables. For example, powers of arrest and search under PACE will need to be exercised in accordance with the relevant PACE codes of practice. The only exceptions might be, for example, where certain powers are currently exercisable only by ports police. In such circumstances, there may be an
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operational case for conferring such powers on designated SOCA staff, in which case, the normal limitations would be disapplied.
My noble friend Lord Mackenzie raised the issues of terms and conditions and membership of trades unions. We have made it clear that police officers transferring to SOCA will transfer on a no-detriment basis. I entirely understand that NCS officers will want to know what the SOCA terms and conditions will be, and we intend to provide a detailed package for negotiation with the unions by Easter. Approaches to dispute resolution will need to be part of those discussions. Schedule 2 amends Part 2 of the Police Reform Act 2002, to provide for SOCA to come within the remit of the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
My noble friend Lord Harris asked about exchange of staff between the two services. The great majority of the staff will be employees of the agency, but there will be an opportunity for those outside to be seconded both ways. We could deal with that issue quite happily. The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, together with the noble Earl, Lord Rosslyn, said, "What about the board? Why are we not having more people represented?". Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, asked that about police authorities too. We have made it clear that the board will comprise people with the right skills and experience. They will not be representatives of the stakeholders per se, although of course they may be. They will really be identified by virtue of the skills that they bring to the table. Needless to say, SOCA may consult those that it considers appropriate. It would be invidious to put in the Bill the whole list of all those whom it will consult, but personally I would be surprised if police authorities and other chief constables were not on that list.
The noble Lord, Lord Imbert, raised the question of the independence of SOCA. It is suggested that the Home Secretary could determine the operations of SOCA, given his power to appoint the director general. The Bill enshrines the operational independence of the director-general and I should also point out that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and his predecessors have always appointed the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, but it has never been suggested that that in any way impinges upon the operation of the Metropolitan Police service. The same would continue.
A number of noble Lordsthe noble Baroness, Lady Harris, my noble friends Lady Henig, Lord Mackenzie and Lord Harris of Haringey, the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, and the noble Lord, Lord Dholakiaall raised issues concerning staff custody officers. The provisions in the Bill relating to the appointment of custody officers seek to confer on chief officers the ability to appoint those members of the forcebe it police officers or police staffwho are the most competent, skilled and able to take on and effectively discharge the role of custody officer.
Much of the debate has centred on whether only a police sergeant can undertake that role. A number of the respondents to our consultation on police powers
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recognise that a significant element of the job of a custody sergeant is process-driven and civilians could carry out those tests. Of course, I was interested in the comment made by my noble friend about the return of "Dixon of Dock Green" and we shall certainly bear that in mind.
There is also the recognition that the principle of civilian staff performing the role of custody officer was acceptable, provided that suitable training and selection processes were in place. That is an approach with which we very much agree and the pilots will, I hope, help us to do that. My noble friend Lord Mackenzie asked us to name names. I am happy to do that in relation to who supported these powers, because they have already been outed by my noble friend Hazel Blears in another place on 18 January. She said that, in consultation, the Wiltshire, Gloucestershire, Avon and Somerset, Hertfordshire and Hampshire constabularies, as well as North Yorkshire and Surrey police, were all keen to support these changes. Surrey police is one of the forces which is undertaking a major workforce modernisation pilot, redesigning its basic command unit and considering different people doing different jobs in different places with different skills. So there are the names.
I shall quickly deal with the issue raised by my noble friend Lady Gibson, on behalf of another noble friend who is not able to be here, in relation to the work that is currently under way on the issue of paedophiles. Initially the Paedophile Online team, who work on child pornography on the Internet, will transfer into SOCA as part of NCS. We have yet to take a decision on the longer-term future of the work of that team, but we are clear that this is vital work that must continue.
Issues relating to Scotland were raised by my noble friend Lady Ramsay, the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, and the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose. My noble friend Lady Ramsay asked about SOCA officers operating in Scotland and I am happy to give the assurance that she seeks; namely, that designated SOCA officers operating in Scotland would be expected to have the necessary knowledge of and training in Scots criminal law and procedures. The Bill also, among other things, requires the Home Secretary to consult Scottish Ministers before setting the strategic priorities for SOCA and the agency must agree with Scottish Ministers as to the provision that its annual plan will make for Scotland. On the ground, SOCA will work in close partnership with the Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency.
These arrangements have been agreed with Scottish Ministers and, furthermore, the Scottish Parliament has adopted a Sewel motion in respect of the Bill. A similar set of arrangements will apply in Northern Ireland, where SOCA will work closely with the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
We turn next to the issue raised by my noble friend Lord Pendry, who asked about the impact of Clause 166 on football clubs in Scotland. Scottish law currently prevents football grounds from applying for licences to sell alcohol, therefore in-house stewards who undertake designated activities within football grounds will not be
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required to be licensed by the Security Industry Authority, once its remit is extended north of the Border, as provided for in the Bill. We are continuing to work with the Security Industry Authority and the football authorities to resolve the position in relation to football stewards in England and Wales. I hope that that gives my noble friend a modicum of satisfaction. In answer to the point raised by the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, in relation to the SIA, it will not, as such, deal with the disciplinary matters of the pre-cognition agents.
I now turn to an issue where, most unusually, there seems to be total unanimity across the Housethat is, in relation to the offence of intimidation of persons connected with animal research organisations. Since being a Minister, I have never had experience of total agreement, and so I wish to celebrate that fact.
My noble friend Lord Turnberg pointed out that the protection afforded to animal research organisations by the new offence in Clause 143 would not extend to grant-giving bodies which help to fund animal research organisations. We are aware of this lacuna and have received representations on the matter from a number of funding bodies. Therefore, I hope that I shall give a degree of pleasure to the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby, my noble friends Lord Harris of Haringey and Lady Gibson of Market Rasen, the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and my noble friend Lord Drayson when I say that, in the light of those representations and others, we intend to bring forward in Committee an amendment to extend the list of persons in subsection (2) of the clause to cover bodies which provide financial assistance to animal research organisations. So unanimity has its reward.
To take up another point raised by my noble friend Lord Drayson, the Home Office has, and is, providing funding to enable the police service to tackle animal rights extremists effectively. This is very much work in progress, and we are discussing policing requirements with the service. The Home Office has funded the National Extremism Tactical Co-ordinating Unit, which provides a key co-ordinating role between the industry and the police. Extra funding has been agreed for NETCU for the next financial year. That will provide extra staff and secure accommodation and is a 135 per cent increase over this year. I hope that noble Lords will understand why it would not be prudent to provide further details in a public forum.
I now turn, if I may, to the most difficult issue with which we have grappled todayan issue where there is not unanimity. I refer to concerns over the restriction of freedom of speech. Perhaps I may lay to rest straight away a suggestionmade not least by the noble Lord, Lord Bakerthat this is some kind of pre-election gambit. If it is, it is one that has been ongoing for four or five years. There was debate in 1999 and the Bill in 2001. A Bill was then introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, in 200203, and we are back here again. Therefore, this is a commitment that this Government have maintained over a long period of time. With the greatest respect to those who suspect otherwise, it has little, if anything, to do with any suggested election. I cannot say anything about that issue because none of us knows when the election will be called before 2006.
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This matter has been debated and there has been much support for it. The import of that support comes from Churches and multi-faith groups, which are engaged in the issue of liberty. Others outwith this Chamber have supported these provisions and have done so very solidly. Voice has been given in this debate to that support by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth, who made it clear that it is a multi-faith issue and that it is not limited to any individual faith.
We heard very powerful speeches on this issue. The noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, spoke with great passion, as did my noble friends Lord Alli and Lord Ahmed and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who has dealt with this matter time and time again, together with many others. Those voices were in support.
Equally cogently and trenchantly, we had speeches from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, the noble lord, Lord Lester, the colourful and entertaining speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, and my noble friend and short-term loyalistI use his words, not mineLord Desai, all of which gave voice to passionate opposition to the Bill for fear that it will promote restriction of freedom of speech and defeat the very aims that it tries to promote.
I remind the House that similar fears were raised about incitement to racial hatred. The problems enumerated by the noble Viscount, Lord Colvillethe problems about how the ECHR would bite and the Bill would operate and how we would get juries to understand this difficult issueare very similar to debates about incitement to racial hatred. There were those who said that having such a law would simply stir up resentment and bile against those whom the law was intended to protect. Similar arguments were made about why members of the Jewish community, Sikhs and others should not be identified in a way thought to be inappropriateand, indeed, why people of colour would not benefit from being singled out as different and deserving of some attention.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, mentioned Section 5 of the Public Order Act, which was used in the Norwood case, and said that it could provide the protection sought under Clause 122. I make it plain that it applies only where the words or behaviour are used or the material displayed within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress. It would not cover inflammatory statements made at meetings of extreme political or religious groups that stir up hatred, because those against whom the hatred is directed will not be present. That does not happen often, but when it does, it has a very damaging effect on our community, as it did in the northern towns in 2001. We cannot ignore the pain, fear and destruction that flowed from that.
Incitement to homophobic hatred was raised by my noble friend Lord Alli. The Government keep the criminal law under constant review and we are open to considering whether further extensions are needed. Other vulnerable groups are protected from violence and abuse under the criminal law, including the
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Protection from Harassment Act and the relevant provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 2003. We would want carefully to consider any evidence that those provisions are inadequate and, if so, what form additional protection would best take. I very much welcome the commitment made by my noble friend Lord Ahmed that in relation to those rights, he stands with my noble friend Lord Alli.
We talked a little bit about closing the gap. The noble Baroness, Lady D'Souza, raised some very important points. There is an issue about defence. It is a defence that a person who is not shown to have intended to stir up racial or religious hatred is not guilty of an offence if he or she did not know and had no reason to suspect that the offending material was threatening, abusive or insulting. A similar point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, about whether it was relevant for someone to be offended or insulted by a speech. It does not matter whether a Muslim feels insulted by an anti-Muslim speech; what matters is whether others feel stirred up to hate Muslims because of it. I remind the House that this is not an offence for Muslims. It is an offence for all religions. Christians, Hindus, Baha'is and other religions are equally covered by the offence.
In the one or two minutes left over by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I shall briefly deal with trespass on designated sites. The new offence of trespass on designated sites is a response to the Armstrong report of July 2003 and the Security Commission inquiry report of May 2004, which both supported the creation of such an offence. I am aware that concern has been expressed that those powers may be used to prevent access to large areas of the countryside, which is an issue that was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and my noble friend Lady Gibson.
Nothing could be further from the truth. In making designations under those powers, the Secretary of State will be mindful of the need to provide a proportionate response to intrusions at sensitive sites. In particular, we will wish to discourage deliberate intrusions into Parliament and elsewhere.
My noble friend Lord Harris raised the issue of airguns. The Government are presently reviewing the law in that area. We will look closely at whatever further needs to be done in relation to that.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, raised the issue of information in relation to intercept material. Although we have had a number of discussions on that, intercept material is already being used. The main volume of intercept has always been and continues to be its use in assisting intelligence agencies and law enforcement to use other techniques to safeguard national security or to prevent and/or detect serious crime.
In 2003 alone, interception led to the seizure of 26 tonnes of illicit drugs, the seizure of 10 tonnes of tobacco, the detection of £390 million of financial crime and 1,680 arrests. A sample of those reviewed by the Government showed an impressive result in conviction rate that is comparable to any other country. So we are
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using that information in a dynamic way. I have a full answer which goes to several pages, but I do not think that I am entitled to prey on the time of the House.
My noble friend Lady Whitaker raised the issue of the UN Convention against Corruption and the Serious Fraud Office. First, my noble friend asked whether the provision of Chapter 5 of Part 2 would enable the Government to ratify the UN Convention against Corruption. I can assure her that the Bill will take us closer to ratification by addressing Article 55 of the convention, which relates to the forfeiture of instrumentalities of crime. But there are still certain other legislative requirements that remain to be completed. We will ratify the convention as soon as we are satisfied that the UK can comply with its obligations.
My noble friend also asked about the investigation of international corruption and fraud, and the consequences for the Serious Fraud Office of setting up SOCA. The SFO will continue to lead on the investigation of serious fraud. However, SOCA will continue to offer specialist support and technical assistance to individual SFO investigations, including tackling international corruption as the National Crime Squad and NCIS do at the moment.
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Finally, I turn to Parliament Square, because the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and a number of noble Lords, not least my noble friend Lord Plant of Highfield, raised that very issue. The precise area will be defined in secondary legislation. We intend to consult the Metropolitan Police so that it covers the area where demonstrations disrupt the work of Parliament, hinders access to the House and causes a security risk. In defining the designated area, we will consider carefully what the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, said, as well as what my noble friend Lord Plant said, particularly as regards Trafalgar Square.
I was intrigued with the argument about clamping and meters. Of course, those matters will excite a great deal of care and attention when they come to be further considered.
The only remaining issue is whether these are matters that noble Lords can commend. We have had a very thorough debate of these issues. A huge amount of assent to the majority of the provisions has come out of it. We obviously look forward to the detailed scrutiny of the Bill. I commend the Bill to the House.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
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