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Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, made clear, it was not just the title that remained. It was also the comfortable arrangements for pension and pay. As far as that is concerned, despite these generous arrangements—which are made in order to make the resignation of the Lord Chancellor on principle an easier matter—no Lord Chancellor has resigned on principle in recent times, as I said on the last occasion. Perhaps, therefore, their effect is neutral in that respect.

My basic point is to consider the effect of the fundamental changes that have been made. We all agree that we want to strengthen the office as much as possible. The other issue is the extent to which we pay regard to what the other place has said. This Bill has been going through Parliament for 13 months. It was referred to in the Queen's Speech in 2003. It was a significant part of the Government's programme for 2003. We have given it detailed scrutiny and consideration. Of course our power is to make the other place think again. They have thought again. They have debated it on two separate occasions. It is a significant issue. It is not for us to determine those issues where we are the more powerful of the two Houses. Our job is to make the other place think again. Once we are satisfied that they have done so, then we should pay proper regard to their views.

Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I shall be extremely brief. The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, questioned whether it would be proper to send the Bill back. I say to the noble Lord: yes, it would be.

First, this is a constitutional Bill. Secondly, it originated in your Lordships' House, not the other place. Thirdly, as a number of your Lordships have said, the vast majority of the Bill is agreed. Huge changes are going to be made to the judicial arm of the constitution. This is, indeed, the biggest change to that branch since the Act of Settlement 1701. It has been brought about by—if I may say so to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor—an impressive process of successive iteration, compromise thinking, rethinking and reformulation. It is a remarkable Bill. We are only talking about one small ingredient, taking up no more than three lines though very important to constitutional fundamentals.

The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, questioned whether it was necessary to have a grasp of the detail of legal issues to defend the rule of law. The answer was very effectively given by the noble and learned Lord,
 
21 Mar 2005 : Column 39
 
Lord Mackay of Clashfern. The vast majority of rule of law issues between ourselves and the Government Benches—when I say "ourselves", I mean not only Her Majesty's Opposition, but also, usually, in harmony with the Liberal Democrats—have concerned extremely detailed matters of criminal evidence. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor sought to lampoon me in saying that I wanted to define the rule of law as simply the interstices of the law of criminal evidence. That, with great respect, was uncharacteristically unfair of the noble and learned Lord. One cannot protect the rule of law without having a good grasp of the detail.

The office of Lord Chancellor, lawyer and Lord, has been with us for over 1,000 years. Every generation has tested those qualities and found them desirable. What is so special about this generation? We have not had the answer to that, and that is why I intend to test the opinion of the House.

4.47 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1BA) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 191; Not-Contents, 203.


Division No. 1


CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Ballyedmond, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Cameron of Lochbroom, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carrington, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chilver, L.
Chorley, L.
Cobbold, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawford and Balcarres, E.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dearing, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goff of Chieveley, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
London, Bp.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moser, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Palumbo, L.
Patten, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Prior, L.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandwich, E.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Tombs, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alliance, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Blood, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkender, B.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Garden, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Gregson, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laming, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Ludford, B.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murphy, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.


Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.


 
21 Mar 2005 : Column 42
 

On Question, Motion agreed to.

5 p.m.


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