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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the Minister. Perhaps my mental arithmetic is not very good, but when she said that for someone doing a four-year course at a Scottish university the cost would be approximately the same as for someone at an English university on the basis of fees of £1,400 to £1,700—

Baroness Amos: My Lords, I said between £1,700 and £1,900.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, even at £1,700 that would be £6,800. Contrary to what the Government expected, the vast majority—more than 95 per cent—of English universities are going to charge fees of £3,000. That is £9,000. And £6,800 is not equal to £9,000.

Baroness Amos: My Lords, we are talking about variable fees, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, knows. Fee levels will be set by individual universities. I accept that if universities set fees at the top of the variable fee range, that will be the case; if not, the comparison is a valid one.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, but a survey released the other day shows that 95 per cent of English universities are choosing to charge the maximum fee of £3,000. I know that is not what the Government expected—indeed, when we discussed the matter they said that it would not be the position—but it is what has happened. The noble Baroness's briefing probably reflects what the department thought might happen, as opposed to what is happening outside in the real world.

Baroness Amos: My Lords, I do not accept that. Universities have made it clear that they may charge different variable fees for different courses and may not charge the same fee across the board. We could debate the issue endlessly across the Dispatch Box, but I think that my point is right: it depends on where
 
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universities choose to set the variable fee. Of course if they set the fee at the higher rate, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is quite right: the comparison is not accurate. It depends on the point at which that variable fee is made. That is the point I was making.

The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, in particular asked what the access agreements would cover and what would be included in bursaries. An access agreement should cover, as a minimum, university plans for bursaries and other financial support for students; any outreach work planned by the university to encourage more potential students to consider higher education; financial information on funding available for prospective students; and university objectives to measure how its plans to safeguard and improve access are being achieved.

On the level of student support, it is proposed to apply similar arrangements to those proposed for England. For example, there will no longer be a requirement to pay tuition fees in advance. Instead, students could defer payment until they leave higher education. Since there will be fee deferral arrangements, the fee remission grant will be discontinued. A single larger non-repayable departmental higher education bursary of up to £3,200 will be available instead. Students can, if they wish, choose to use that to pay part or all their tuition fees. The current maintenance loan will be retained.

My noble friend Lord Morgan and the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, made reference to the importance of quality and competitiveness in universities. I agree with my noble friend Lord Morgan about the importance of changing policy and about consistency across the board in relation to that. Of course the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, has extensive experience of these matters—far more than I have. I listened to the noble Lord's remarks with interest. I was struck not only by the advantages set out by the noble Lord of this kind of system, but also by his remarks about the importance of there being an equitable system.

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, raised the issue of the Open University and the commitments that were made during discussion of the Higher Education Bill. My understanding is that the arrangements for part-time students in Northern Ireland are not being changed, but that within the order there is a reserved power to provide part-time students with fee loans which would enable them to defer paying their fees if such a policy direction were decided at a later date.

On the possibility of extending fee deferral to part-time students, the Open University has been commissioned to carry out a survey into the incomes of part-time students and the costs they incur while studying. I was struck by the noble Lord saying that he had recently received a communication on this from the Open University. I should be concerned if there were some cross-communication here, but my understanding is that the Open University is conducting this research on behalf of the Government.
 
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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister. What the Open University needs is not to conduct a survey; it needs resources to be able to provide the teaching for the students. The problem for the Open University is that it will not benefit from the income which comes from the students through top-up fees. It therefore has no additional source of income.

During the consideration of the Bill, my understanding was that Ministers gave an assurance, particularly to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, but also to other noble Lords, that this matter would be urgently addressed. That needs to happen before the coming academic year. Conducting a survey will not do anything for the Open University in giving it more money, which is what it requires.

Baroness Amos: My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. I think that there are two elements to the issue. One is on the commitments which were given during discussion of the Higher Education Bill. Consideration continues within the Department for Education and Skills on these matters with respect to the Open University. On the other side, the Open University has been commissioned to conduct some research which will assist the Government in making further decisions on the matter. So there are two different elements to this.

Perhaps I may say to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, whose comments were scathing about the Government's commitment to education, that we have demonstrated that commitment, not only in the additional resources that we have made available for education, but also on the up-scaling for vocational training. That was present not only in the DfES five-year plan that was launched, but also in the commitments made this morning by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Skills.

The noble Lord, Lord Pilkington, has very strong views on these matters, which he has expressed in this House on a number of occasions. I note the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, about the source of bursary funds. As a result of the proposed access agreements, universities will provide bursaries from income raised through higher fees. That is not therefore dependent on support from the private sector. The proposal is that it would come from the income raised through higher fees.

I think that I have addressed all the points which have been raised.

Lord Dearing: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, on the issue of the Scottish figure versus the English figure—the 6.8 versus nine—the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, was right in saying that all but seven of the English universities have opted for the full £3,000. That would be offset to a substantial extent, however, by the bursaries they intend to give.

I have heard—my memory may not be correct—that the total income they expect from the £3,000 is £1.2 billion, but there will be something over £200 million in the form of bursaries, which helps to
 
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bridge the gap. It may be that, in Scotland, the final decision on what English students will be charged will not be taken until the sums are done.

Sorry, am I going on too long?

Noble Lords: Yes.

Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: My Lords, before the Minister sits down—

Noble Lords: Oh!

Lord Glentoran: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, I did not expect to rerun the debate on top-up fees, as has happened. The purpose of my amendment was, and still is, to make the point that Northern Ireland should have its own right and time to make its own decisions on top-up fees. The debate has just demonstrated what little certainty and strong feelings there are all around the House on this matter. It has proven, as I said in my opening remarks, that a Government with a majority of 200 in the other place can get its legislation with a majority of only five, supported by Scottish MPs to whom that legislation did not apply.

It would be wrong, overbearing and arrogant of this Government—and for Mr Gardiner, MP—to say "We are going to enforce this on Northern Ireland now, come what may". I wish to test the opinion of the House.

4.2 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 168; Not-Contents, 150.


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