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Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blood, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colwyn, L.
Courtown, E.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsdown, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laidlaw, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, Bp.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Ouseley, L.
Patten, L.
Patten of Barnes, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Steinberg, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.

NOT-CONTENTS
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Billingham, B.
Borrie, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grantchester, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Manchester, Bp.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Highbury, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.


Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

 
22 Mar 2005 : Column 133
 

Motion, as amended, agreed to.

Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Bill

4.15 p.m.

Report received.

 
22 Mar 2005 : Column 134
 

Clause 4 ["Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs"]:

Lord Campbell of Alloway moved Amendment No. 1:

Page 2, line 29, at end insert—

"( ) Provision shall be made to ensure that revenue independence and methods as regards investigation and enforcement in the interest of the taxpayer are retained."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment proposes as a matter of principle to ensure that provision be made for retention of the extant Revenue independence and methods as regards investigation and enforcement, in the interests of the taxpayer, under the merger with Customs and Excise to form the HMRC—having particular regard to the coercive powers of investigation of Customs and Excise.

The amendment reflects the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and noble Lords well versed in the expertise of the relevant arcane arts—the noble Lords, Lord Barnett, Lord Sheldon, Lord Newby and Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, and my noble friend Lady Noakes. My noble friend warned against resort to draconian powers under the Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill, referring to the sensitivity of information and the importance of a proportionate approach, which had attracted attention in the first JCHR report, as engaging Article 8. My noble friend also sought clarification on the making of extra-statutory concessions.

The substance of the common concern arises from the diversity of culture and working methods between the Commissioners of Inland Revenue and the Commissioners of Customs and Excise. The noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, a veritable past master in these arts, said:

"It is not easy to see how these two different kinds of expertise will survive, still less be transferred with success from one part of a new department to another. It is still more difficult, given the present level of work by each of these two departments which are under considerable strain".—[Official Report, 7/2/05; col. 597.]

This amendment seeks to retain that diversity of culture for the Revenue. For example, there is the writ of assistance, which is only available to Customs and Excise on application to the Queen's Remembrancer, a senior Master sitting in the Law Courts. Once granted, it serves as a warrant for forcible entry and as a general search warrant, free from further judicial control—even if nothing sought is found. I am anxious that those procedures should not be resorted to on Revenue enforcement.

The amendment is not concerned with extra statutory concessions as such, but only with retention of the Revenue culture on investigation and enforcement, which is, and was, a matter of common concern in your Lordships' House. On 4 March the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General sent a long and complicated letter in reply to a request from my noble friend Lady Noakes concerning extra statutory concessions, which, with the greatest respect, would not appear to be relevant
 
22 Mar 2005 : Column 135
 
to the limited scope of this amendment. I have the document with me, but it is far too complex to read. I beg to move.

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