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Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, reminded your Lordships' House that it had originally been advanced by the Liberal Democrat Benches. I was aware of that. I did not mention it in my opening speech because I did not want to embarrass the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, by reminding him that that was the case. We have marched arm-in-arm on many issues in your Lordships' House in the past few years; and I understand that, sometimes, political factors intervene which mean that, at a late stage, political parties change their positions. The trouble is, however, that the advocacy of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, was so convincing that I have now acquired the zeal of the convert. I now feel more strongly about this issue than even the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart.

The constitutional issues have already been well discussed. My view is that the Government's enthusiasm for the separation of powers falters when they are faced with the fundamental issue—the balance of power between the executive and the judiciary. The Government were extremely enthusiastic about removing the noble and learned Law Lords from your Lordships' House because, frankly, it will not make a ha'p'orth of difference in terms of power whether they make their judgments in your Lordships' House or in a Supreme Court down the road. By contrast, it will make a great deal of difference as to whether or not the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice has a veto over the Prime Minister's choice of a judge to chair an inquiry.
 
7 Apr 2005 : Column 909
 

Much of this debate has been about whether or not a particular judge ought to be able to say "yes" or "no" to an invitation or whether the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor ought to be able to say "yes" or "no" on behalf of a particular judge. If that were the only issue I would feel less strongly than I do about this amendment; but that is not just the issue. The real issue is whether or not any judge, at all, should be chairing a particular inquiry for which the Prime Minister has to make a choice. That is the fundamental issue.

On that issue, I share the judgment of the noble Lord, Lord Laming, about the wisdom of our friends across the Atlantic. The views of the Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States on this matter are extremely sound. For that reason, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

1.14 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 2A) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 87; Not-Contents, 135.


Division No. 2


CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Higgins, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Naseby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Reay, L.
Renton, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thatcher, B.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Borrie, L.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Drayson, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Garden, L.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Laming, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Marsh, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Neuberger, B.
Nicol, B.
Paul, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prosser, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Snape, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.


Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.


 
7 Apr 2005 : Column 910
 
1.24 p.m.

On Question, Motion agreed to.
 
7 Apr 2005 : Column 911
 

COMMONS AMENDMENT

4 Clause 54, page 26, line 9, leave out subsection (2)

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 4. This is the privilege amendment. It is a technical amendment to remove the privilege amendment to Clause 54, which was inserted at Third Reading in this House. As this House cannot consider matters of money and charges on public funds, the amendment was inserted. Members in the other place passed at Second Reading a money resolution for the Bill and at Committee stage agreed that the amendment should be removed.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 4.—(Baroness Ashton of Upholland.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Disability Discrimination Bill [HL]

1.27 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Hollis of Heigham): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments be now considered.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.


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