House of Lords Journal 238 (Session 2004-05)


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Monday 29th November 2004

The House met at half-past two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Falconer of Thoroton, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Best, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Burns, L.
Buscombe, B.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carey of Clifton, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chandos, V.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cockfield, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
D’Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elder, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Feldman, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gavron, L.
Geddes, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Griffiths, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.

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Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Jones, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Laming, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Manchester, Bp.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Moser, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murphy, B.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
O’Cathain, B.
O’Neill of Bengarve, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orme, L.
Ouseley, L.
Oxburgh, L.
Palmer, L.
Parekh, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prashar, B.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Richard, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Steinberg, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Triesman, L.
Trumpington, B.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Vincent of Coleshill, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.

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Whitty, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Manchester.

Judicial Business

1.Roberts (FC) (Appellant) v. Parole Board (Respondents) (England)— The appeal of Harry Maurice Roberts was presented and it was ordered that in accordance with Standing Order VI the statement and appendix thereto be lodged on or before 10th January 2005.
2.Serco Limited (Respondents) v. Lawson (Appellant)— The petition of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office praying for leave to intervene in the said appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee.
3.AE (FC) and another (Appellants) v. Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent)— The petition of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees praying for leave to intervene in the said appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee.
4.Gillies (AP) (Appellant) v. Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Respondent) (Scotland)— The appeal was set down for hearing and referred to an Appellate Committee.
5.Percy (AP) (Appellant) v. Church of Scotland Board of National Mission (Respondents) (Scotland)— The appeal was set down for hearing and referred to an Appellate Committee.
6.Appeal Committee—The 3rd Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made—

Gardner (Applicant) v. Her Majesty’s Commissioners of Customs and Excise (Respondents)— That permission to appeal be refused because the application is inadmissible.

7.Appeal Committee—The 4th Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Orders were made—

R (on the application of Paul Rackham Limited) (Petitioners) v. Swaffham Magistrates’ Court (Respondents)— That the petition be dismissed as inadmissible.
Office of the King’s Prosecutor, Brussels (Respondents) v. Armas (Petitioner) and others—That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 13th December.
R v. Misra and another (Petitioners)— That leave to appeal be refused.

Papers

8.Statutory Instrument (Standing Order 71)— The following negative instrument, having been laid before the House on 26th November, was ordered to lie on the Table:

Immigration (Leave to Remain) (Fees) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2004, laid under the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999.

(3105)

9.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1. (i)Accounts for 2003–04 of the National Museums and Galleries on Merseyside, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General—
(ii)Accounts for 2003–04 of the Wallace Collection, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General—
 laid under the Museums and Galleries Act 1992;
2.Accounts for 2003–04 of the National Army Museum, laid under the Charities Act 1993, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General;
3.Accounts for 2003–04 of the Insolvency Services Account and the Insolvency Services Investment Account, laid under the Insolvency Act 1986, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General;
4.Report for 2004 on proposals for bringing fully into force those provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 which are not yet fully in force, laid under the Freedom of Information Act 2000;
5.Memorandum of Agreement between the Coal Authority and the Health and Safety Executive, laid under the Coal Industry Act 1994.

Private Business

10.Petitions for private bills—The following petitions for private bills were deposited on or before 29th November 2004 pursuant to Standing Order:

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Name of Petition
By whom deposited
HBOS Group ReorganisationBircham Dyson Bell
Liverpool City Council (Prohibition
of Smoking in Places of Work)
Sharpe Pritchard
London Local AuthoritiesSharpe Pritchard
London Local Authorities and
Transport for London
Sharpe Pritchard
London Local Authorities
(Prohibition of Smoking in Places
of Work)
Sharpe Pritchard
Whitstable Oyster Fishery CompanyBircham Dyson Bell

Public Business

11.Business of the House—It was moved by the Lord President (Baroness Amos) that Standing Order 41 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Wednesday 1st December next to allow the motion standing in the name of the Baroness Gardner of Parkes to be taken before the motion standing in the name of the Lord Hanningfield; the motion was agreed to.
12.Economic Affairs—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that a Select Committee be appointed to consider economic affairs;

That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords be named of the Committee:

L. Elder
L. Goodhart
L. Kingsdown
L. Lamont of Lerwick
L. Lawson of Blaby
L. Layard
L. Macdonald of Tradeston
L. Marsh
L. Sheldon
L. Sheppard of Didgemere
L. Skidelsky
L. Vallance of Tummel
L. Wakeham (Chairman);

That the Committee have power to appoint a sub-committee and to refer to such sub-committee any of the matters within the terms of reference of the Committee; that the Committee have power to appoint the Chairman of such sub-committee;
That the Committee have power to co-opt any Lord for the purpose of serving on such sub-committee;
That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place;
That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the minutes of evidence taken before the Economic Affairs Committee or any sub-committee in the last session of Parliament be referred to the Committee;
That the minutes of evidence taken before the Committee from time to time shall, if the Committee think fit, be printed;
the motion was agreed to.

13.European Union—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that a Select Committee be appointed to consider European Union documents and other matters relating to the European Union;

That the expression “European Union documents” shall include the following documents:

(i)Any proposal under the Community Treaties for legislation by the Council or the Council acting jointly with the European Parliament;
(ii)Any document which is published for submission to the European Council, the Council or the European Central Bank;
(iii)Any proposal for a common strategy, a joint action or a common position under Title V (provisions on a common foreign and security policy) of the Treaty on European Union which is prepared for submission to the Council or to the European Council;
(iv)Any proposal for a common position, framework decision, decision or a convention under Title VI (provisions on police and judicial co-operation in criminal matters) of the Treaty on European Union which is prepared for submission to the Council;
(v)Any document (not falling within (ii), (iii) or (iv) above) which is published by one Union institution for or with a view to submission to another Union institution and which does not relate exclusively to consideration of any proposal for legislation;
(vi)Any other document relating to European Union matters deposited in the House by a Minister of the Crown;

That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords be named of the Committee:

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L. Bowness
L. Dubs
L. Geddes
L. Grenfell (Chairman)
L. Hannay of Chiswick
L. Harrison
B. Maddock
L. Marlesford
L. Neill of Bladen
L. Radice
L. Renton of Mount Harry
L. Scott of Foscote
L. Shutt of Greetland
B. Thomas of Walliswood
L. Tomlinson
L. Woolmer of Leeds
L. Wright of Richmond;

That the Committee have power to appoint sub-committees and to refer to such sub-committees any of the matters within the terms of reference of the Committee; that the Committee have power to appoint the Chairmen of sub-committees, but that such sub-committees have power to appoint their own Chairman for the purpose of particular inquiries; that two be the quorum of such sub-committees;
That the Committee have power to co-opt any Lord for the purpose of serving on a sub-committee;
That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the Committee and any sub-committee have power to adjourn from place to place;
That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the Reports of the Select Committee from time to time shall be printed, notwithstanding any adjournment of the House;
That the minutes of evidence taken before the European Union Committee or any sub-committee in the last session of Parliament be referred to the Committee;
That the minutes of evidence taken before the Committee from time to time shall, if the Committee think fit, be printed;
the motion was agreed to.

14.Mental Health Bill, Draft—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that a Committee of twelve Lords be appointed to join with a Committee appointed by the Commons to consider and report on any draft Mental Health Bill presented to both Houses by a Minister of the Crown;

That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the Lords following be named of the Committee:

B. Barker
L. Carlile of Berriew
L. Carter
B. Cumberlege
B. Eccles of Moulton
B. Finlay of Llandaff
B. McIntosh of Hudnall
L. Mayhew of Twysden
B. Murphy
B. Pitkeathley
L. Rix
L. Turnberg;

That the Committee have power to agree with the Commons in the appointment of a Chairman;
That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the quorum of the Committee shall be two;
That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom;
That the proceedings of the Joint Committee on the draft Mental Health Bill in the last session of Parliament be referred to the Committee;
That the reports of the Committee from time to time shall be printed, notwithstanding any adjournment of the House;
And that the Committee do report on the draft Bill by 31st March 2005;
the motion was agreed to and a message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

15.Merits of Statutory Instruments—It was moved by the Chairman of Committees that a Select Committee be appointed to consider every instrument which is laid before each House of Parliament and upon which proceedings may be or might have been taken in either House of Parliament, in pursuance of an Act of Parliament, being:
(i)a statutory instrument, or a draft of a statutory instrument;
(ii)a scheme, or an amendment of a scheme, or a draft thereof, requiring approval by statutory instrument; or

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(iii)any other instrument (whether or not in draft), where the proceedings in pursuance of an Act of Parliament are proceedings by way of an affirmative or negative resolution;

but excluding any Order in Council or draft Order in Council made or proposed to be made under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the Northern Ireland Act 2000 and any remedial order or draft remedial order under Schedule 2 to the Human Rights Act 1998 and any draft order proposed to be made under section 1 of the Regulatory Reform Act 2001, or any subordinate provisions order made or proposed to be made under that Act;
with a view to determining whether the special attention of the House should be drawn to it on any of the following grounds:

(a)that it is politically or legally important or gives rise to issues of public policy likely to be of interest to the House;
(b)that it is inappropriate in view of the changed circumstances since the passage of the parent Act;
(c)that it inappropriately implements European Union legislation;
(d)that it imperfectly achieves its policy objectives;

That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Lords be named of the Committee:

L. Addington
L. Armstrong of Ilminster
L. Boston of Faversham
V. Colville of Culross
L. Hunt of Kings Heath (Chairman)
L. Jopling
L. McKenzie of Luton
L. Methuen
E. Northesk
B. Royall of Blaisdon
V. Ullswater;

That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom;
That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the Reports of the Select Committee from time to time shall be printed, notwithstanding any adjournment of the House;
the motion was agreed to.

16.Constitutional Reform Bill [HL]— It was moved by the Lord Falconer of Thoroton that the amendments for the Report Stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:
Clauses 1 to 6
Schedule 1
Clause 7
Schedule 2
Clause 8
Schedule 3
Clause 9
Schedule 4
Clause 10
Schedule 5
Clause 11
Schedule 6
Clauses 12 to 17
Schedule 7
Clauses 18 to 31
Schedule 8
Clauses 32 to 47
Schedule 9
Clauses 48 and 49
Schedule 10
Clause 50
Schedule 11
Clauses 51 to 68
Schedule 12
Clauses 69 to 99
Schedule 13
Clauses 100 to 104
Schedule 14
Clause 105
Schedule 15
Clause 106 to 108;

the motion was agreed to.

17.Assisted Dying for the Terminally Ill Bill [hl]— It was moved by the Lord Joffe that the bill be now read a second time; the motion was agreed to and the bill was committed to a Select Committee.
18.Queen’s Speech—The debate on the Motion that an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty was resumed and, after further debate, was again adjourned till tomorrow.

The House was adjourned at twenty-five minutes past nine o’clock
till tomorrow, half-past two o’clock.