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Lord Stevens of Ludgate: My Lords, here we are again. I, too, am sad that the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, has not seen fit to apologise to my noble friend Lord Pearson. If that is the way—
Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, will the noble Lord give way? He has named me. I have a simple question—what am I supposed to apologise for? Read the words that I uttered, and before the noble Lord enters into the debate, if he is going to chastise me, he should tell me what for.
Lord Stevens of Ludgate: My Lords, the noble Lord said that he was praising my noble friend Lord Pearson. If he would have allowed me to finish, I was going to say that if that is the tone in which he praises my noble friend, I would hate to be the subject of his tongue.
I hesitate to disagree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, who is not in his place, about the difference between this House and the world outside in that it is not reflecting the voters' wishes—at least until the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, spoke. His speech was excellent, and I am afraid that I shall be repeating some of his points.
The constitution—a tidying-up exercise according to our Government; a major crisis; extremely damaging; irreparable damage; will plunge the EU into chaos if you vote "No"; according to other European leaders. It is all very confusing but typical of the obfuscation that has surrounded the discussion. Incidentally, no mention is
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made of reform of our Parliament, bearing in mind that 70 per cent of our laws emanate from Brussels. We must face the realities of the situation. Brussels is in chaos. If I had a company whose accounts had not been fully approved for 10 years, I would probably be in jail by now. What happens in Brussels? The whistle-blower gets sacked. The Parliament is so indecisive that it cannot decide whether to meet in Brussels or Strasbourg, at huge expense and inefficiency. Our new EC Commissioner, Mr Mandelson, is now giving the UK Government public advice on how to deal with EU problems—a somewhat inappropriate position to be in. Since the Government do not appear to know what to do, perhaps that is no bad thing.
One minute we are told that there will be a vote on the constitution as a tidying-up exercise, which is a funny thing to be voting on. Then we are not having a vote. Why not? Surely the British people have a right to express their opinion—it might help the Government to form theirs. The excuse for losing the referendum in France is that it was a vote against President Chirac and not to do with the EU at all. The vote was "Yes" or "No" to the constitution. We can analyse why voters voted in a particular way, but the fact is that they voted "No". Why did the Labour Party win the last election here—because voters voted "Yes" for Labour, or because they voted against the Opposition? The fact is that Labour won the election with a large majority. Are we going to have another vote on that because they won when only a quarter of the UK population supported them?
As a percentage of GDP, the Brussels budget is small. Our benefit fraud is probably more than that percentage, but that does not excuse the lack of accountability or massive overemphasis on agricultural support. As has been stated several times in the debate, agriculture is less than 5 per cent of GDP, but the agricultural support is more than 40 per cent. It is all very well to complain about that now; it should, of course, have been dealt with years ago by successive governments.
I hope that we are now seeing the decline of ever-closer union. The countries involved are simply too different. The leaders of Europe may well ignore the death of the constitution and try to install parts of it without a formal treaty. I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to reassure us that that will not occur in the UK, although present actions are not encouraging; I shall not repeat the items mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, the other day. However, on 17 June, the Luxembourg presidency stated:
The federalists have, until now, had their way. I cannot say that they have won the argument for me, because their main argument seems to be vision and inevitability. If you actually want an argument, they cite peace in Europe—have they never heard of NATO?—or the nonsensical statement that 3 million jobs will be lost if we leave the EU. That number of jobs may be dependent on the EU, but that is an extrapolation of many factors and it will not cease if we leave. We will still trade with the EU—look at Switzerland or China—and the EU will still trade with us.
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According to the European Central Bank, the UK is the EU's largest single customer, taking 25 per cent of all EU exports. The next largest is the USA with 17 per cent. We are also the EU's largest outside suppliers, supplying 17 per cent of European imports. Moreover, the EU is in trade surplus with the UK, as is well known. Despite not being an EU country or having a free trade agreement with the EU, the USA exports almost as much to the EU as the UK, despite the fact that the UK enjoys the benefit—if such it is—of the EU customs union single market. Even the Europhiles would be most unlikely to mess around with their largest customer.
The Euro-sceptics or xenophobes—Conservative Central Office denounced UKIP as gadflies, but perhaps "gladflies" would be more appropriate now—have a case, and are prepared to back it up with rather more than a vague comment about nationhood. I shall not bore the House by giving many reasons, but let me repeat one. Why should we become fully integrated into an EU with a rapidly ageing and declining population? For example, 50 per cent of the German federal budget will be spent on old age pensioners if nothing is changed by 2050. Do we really want to be held back by that?
Now we have the admission that several countries cooked the books to join Europe and are still doing so. The Prime Minister of Portugal said in April that it was time to tell the truth about Portugal's public finances, and that:
That is twice the declared figure. Germany, France, Italy, Holland and Greece all flout the stability pact. Greece has confessed to cooking the books by 2 per cent every year from 1997 onwards. Silvio Berlusconi has stated that he is,
What future for the euro now? How can you expect the new accession countries that want to join the EU to meet the budget criteria when existing members cheat? If new members do not meet the criteria, will they be refused entry? Can the Government be serious in ever contemplating getting more involved in such a society? Let us look at manufacturing. By most estimates, EU trade barriers against non-EU imports cost us 3 per cent of GDP, against 1 per cent of GDP for CAP. Why not leave the EU and scrap the EU trade barriers? While in the EU, we have no control of them. It is a debate worth having. The EU has 90,000 pages of rules and regulations. How on earth can anyone absorb that lot? When we implement them we in the UK add even more, as we know.
Where do we go from here? The German Foreign Minister has said that the "No" votes are not an end, just an interruption. I think that Luxembourg and possibly Poland will still hold referendums. It has even been suggested that France and Holland should rerun theirs. However, some European leaders have shown their intention to press ahead with the constitution by stealth. No wonder that we do not trust our politicians. We should refuse to discuss rebates or budget contributions until the EU accounts are signed off—think of a plc
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trying to raise money without a clean report from the accountants. Then we should initiate a full review of the present budget, and of what it is used for and why.
At least Downing Street agrees with me on something. A source suggests in reply to rumours that Britain in Europe, as opposed to the "No" campaign, is considering winding up. It states:
The EU should be a free trade area in goods, services and capital. It should not seek to harmonise taxes, social policy, working hours, retirement ages and many other things. It should not protect its domestic industries. The best way for the EU to foster growth is to do less, not more. Abolishing CAP should be a start, as it keeps the exports of developing countries out of the EU while encouraging fraud. The World Bank estimates the cost of CAP to the developing world at $20 billion a year. Why not deal with third world debt that way rather than cancelling it? Feed the poor, scrap the CAP.
If the EU is prepared to reform and not merely to talk about reforming, the UK should consider remaining of it rather than in it, otherwise the disadvantages of regulation, tariffs and fraud should encourage us to seek a different association. That may ultimately mean leaving the EU, but let us see whether meaningful reform is possible first. The "No" vote is a wake-up call in no uncertain manner. Let us hope that our leaders can benefit from it.
6.46 pm
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