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Lord Selsdon: My Lords, I often wonder why, when times are hard, we use French words: bizarre, grotesque or, like my noble friend Lord Ferrers, volte-face. It is almost as though we do not have an English word to describe the strange situation that we are now in. I will try to take your Lordships back a little and then to look forward into the future.
It saddens me that we seem to have forgotten that Winston Churchill effectively created the EU. I want to put on my glasses and as some form of ancient returning officer make some announcements. I go back to the 21 October 1971 and the Motion before the Lords and Commons:
"That this House approves Her Majesty's Government's decision of principle to join the European Communities on the basis of arrangements which have been negotiated".
That was after nearly 10 years of negotiation and discussion. The most loyal subject we have in this House at the moment is the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, who openly admitted that since 1962 he has totally opposed what was proposed.
At that time, there was a certain schizophrenia in the political world. In the House of Commons, after some 200 speeches and 600 votes, 356 Members said "yes"—that is 59.3 per cent—204 said "no"—40.7 per cent—with a majority of 112. In your Lordships' House—partly dismissed in the other place as backwoodsmen, although the Prime Minister at the time said that we were frontwoodsmen—451 Members—88.6 per cent—said "yes" and 58 said "no"—11.4 per cent—out of a total of 509, a majority of 397. In the combined Houses—we are all parliamentarians—out of a total of 1,109, 807 said "yes".
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It was the speeches made on those days that I rather enjoyed. I have many of them here now, and I have read them all again. I wondered why we had changelings or turncoats entering the political arena. I take one quote from the speech of Sir Alec Douglas-Home at the beginning of the debate:
"In this House and out of it, there is widespread recognition that we have reached the time of decision and that the proper place for that decision is Parliament".—[Official Report, Commons, 21/10/71; col. 912.]
Mr Stanley Orme, Salford West, intervened:
I always thought that you asked the people through Parliament, but he was the first to initiate the process of referendum.
Mr James Callaghan of Cardiff South East said:
"Tonight is no more than the first skirmish in the struggle, in the course of which we shall, I hope, by debate and discussion between ourselves, establish what is Britain's correct relationship with Europe and what is our role in the world ahead".—[Official Report, Commons, 28/10/71; col. 2202.]
It seems no different today. The problem is that we do not know where we have been, we do not know where we are going, and we do not know where we want to go. All we know is that we are trying to be pro-British, and we are not sure whom we should be anti.
What saddens me is that in 1971 most who voted "no" were members of the Labour Party. Mr Orme said, "When we get in, we are going to ask the people; we shall have a referendum". A referendum was held on 5 June 1975 with the question, "Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community?", and, in case people did not know what that was, in brackets were the words "Common Market".
At that time the total electorate was 40 million, of whom 29 million voted. The turnout was 64.5 per cent, compared with 59.4 per cent in the 2001 election and 61.5 per cent in the last election. The percentage that said "yes" was 64.5 per cent, and 66 out of 68 counties had a "yes" majority. The only two that said "no" were Shetland and the Western Isles. By any measure, those statistics show that we were committed and that people wanted to join the Common Market. What went wrong? What has happened?
I shall jump forward to my own experience. I have worked for most of my life in or with the countries of the European Union, often in the third world, and I have some knowledge and understanding. The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, and other noble Lords have properties in France, and I have already explained, with pride, that I am a paysan. I call myself a peasant, but paysan means countryman. In producing wine, I benefit from the CAP. More interestingly, I believe that the CAP is a good idea but carried out in the wrong way. I say that because if one looks at the European Union as it is today, one is struck by the differences rather than by the similarities.
The UK is an urban country; 90 per cent of our people live in urban areas. The only country with more urban living is Malta. In Australia and New Zealand, of course, most people live in urban areas. However,
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the peoples of other countries on the continent of Europe live mainly in rural areas. My noble friend Lord Inglewood pointed out the sizes, but in most of those countries—except Holland, which is mostly urban—a third of the people live in rural communities. Unlike our rural communities, theirs are alive throughout the week because of subsidy. That subsidy was established some time ago and is wrong. If anything, it should be a domestic subsidy from the French Government. If the French Government tried to get out of it, there would almost be a revolution. I can promise noble Lords that even my tractor would probably block the road.
I like it when I am in France because I have friends. I was asked to have a specialist adviser there on referendum night, and one of my Foreign Office friends came down. We watched English, French and Italian television. In the mean time, we had discussions with the paysan brigade and the other local communities—some of them in Le Pen country—about what one should do. They said that we should vote against all governments because they have got it wrong and there should be a "non" vote. I went round and told everyone to vote "non". It was "non" to Chirac.
The postman—the facteur—was the happiest friend of all. He had a new girlfriend. He was driving around very quickly, and he asked me what he should do. I said, "When you deliver the letters before the election, please say 'non', and if there is a 'non' in the house will you give me the same hoot on the horn?". So right around the valley the postman was hooting, "Beep, beep", which meant "non".
There was a great atmosphere, as there is in elections in those countries. It was fun. It was having a go at the government. It was having a go at people who said, "We must have a 35-hour week. You can work for 75 hours yourself, but if you want anyone to work more than 35 hours you have to employ another person and pay the social tax", so the charges go up. That system, with minimum wages and so on, has killed employment. It means that in many of the Latin countries no one wants to work. In Germany, naturally, work is only an unnecessary interlude between two holidays. The Germans are very pleased with the early retirement ages—the 35 years—but they have lost their ability to lead. They have no leaders and do not know what to do next. The worry is that the Left and Right wings are moving back to National Socialism. That is a long way off, but it is there. They are not interested in their future, and they have run out of money.
On the other hand, because they have a slightly grey market, my Italian friends have worked out that they can attract most of the purchasing from around Europe because it is cheaper to buy anything in Italy than anywhere else in Europe, if one pays in cash. The system of the euro does not work, because nobody is keeping to the fixed rules that it needs, so a lot of people would like to pull out of it.
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I find it confusing because many people in France still talk in anciens francs. I have no idea how much an ancien franc is. I have no idea or understanding when someone talks about the cost of the next space shuttle in millions or billions. The currency has not worked.
Where does the future lie? It lies in having a rethink, looking at ourselves and saying—maybe like Galileo, who got it wrong and got into trouble—that maybe the world should revolve around us. Let me explain why. If one takes the Queen's stamp on an envelope, our sovereignty incorporates approximately 29 per cent of the population of the world and 20 per cent of the world's surface. That is the Commonwealth. That is a relationship that I have valued over time and that other countries see as being more valuable than we do.
Supposing, in outre-mer—in international activities—we could get alongside the French with the francophone countries, we would have almost half of Africa, where the problems lie. That is where we have relationships, abilities, knowledge and historical understanding.
Then one comes to other factors that cause concern. It is the differences that make Europe. The moment that anybody seeks to harmonise taxation, we will have people jumping down on us saying, "Hang about. What about your alcohol tax? You are completely destroying the market for alcoholic products on the Continent". On the other hand, our taxes are letting things in here. For example, on the continent of Europe a 24-pack of beer costs the same amount as a supermarket in England has to pay in alcohol tax. That is outrageous. Yet, if the German Government were to reduce or get rid of the speed limit tomorrow, they would fall, and if the French Government put back a tax on motorcars, they would fall. Motorcars are important, but people are more important than things.
The democratic and social make-up of that remarkable collection of countries is varied. The more we expand the European Union, the more complex and difficult it becomes. Of course the Turks are not European. They just have Constantinople on this side, but they are effectively Islamic or Arab. Where does Europe begin and end? I am not sure. I cannot understand why, when 75 per cent of the population of America is of European origin, they do not want to have anything to do with it. So there needs to be a slightly more global attitude to all of this.
As secretary of the Parliamentary Space Committee, I spent last week in Paris with people from the European Space Agency and others. We had an interesting time and talked about the problems that the British Government, Mr Chirac, Mr Schroeder and the Italians have, and the problems that all the others will have. But underneath there was mutual respect and understanding. I believe that if, at this time, we were to sit down with the French to negotiate and discuss in camera, and then possibly did so bilaterally with the Germans, without forcing and dealing with money, it would work.
Outside, there are two tableaux, or carvings, on the wall. One shows the Field of the Cloth of Gold. Throughout history, we have had problems with France.
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We did not have so many problems with Germany; there was a closer alliance. In fact, as your Lordships will know, during the Napoleonic wars we raised regiments in Germany, and in France, Switzerland and throughout the world. That reminds me that the entire armed forces of the Commonwealth exceed those of the United States of America. Those are absolutely useless statistics.
A few thoughts have been advanced to me. The first is on taxation. Why not take all the deprived rural areas of this country and remove all small businesses from any tax? To some extent, that is what the common agricultural policy does. If we lose any form of economic activity in rural areas, the country will polarise around the urban areas. Why do we not say to our aged, "If, once you have reached 65, you want to go on working, you may work for 35 hours a week and you will pay no tax on your income"?
There are simple things that I have discussed with many people. We have made life so complicated for ourselves and more complicated for other people, but the sadness of it all is that we have lost privacy and freedom. The noble Lord, Lord Dahrendorf, said that we should talk about the free world; we should make governments give us back our freedom.
9 pm
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