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Baroness Amos: My Lords, in looking at the speakers' list in preparation for today's debate, I hazarded a guess about the issues that would be raised. Participants in the debate have spoken with knowledge, experience and expertise, and, of course, from a range of perspectives.
 
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I had a forlorn hope that there would be some surprises—perhaps a transformation in the views of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, or of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon. But it was not meant to be. Perhaps it may happen on another occasion.

The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, said that, in responding to questions on the Statement yesterday, I made excuses for the "No" vote. Perhaps I may quote what I said yesterday directly from Hansard. I said:

"I watched with great interest the interviews with individuals after those "No" votes, and the issues that they talked about ranged from concerns about the domestic economy, immigration, asylum, and the possibility of EU enlargement. Few people actually mentioned the treaty itself".—[Official Report, 20/6/05; col. 1448.]

The people who made those comments voted in those referenda.

Perhaps I may say to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, that if I had indeed "flashed him a look" yesterday, he would definitely know it, rather than just think it.

I start with the big picture. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, sparked a difference of opinion with the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, about globalisation and the Government's management of it. In my view, globalisation requires responsive government. Why? Because change is unsettling, and because the impact of globalisation is felt in differential and local ways in communities around the world. It may be about jobs and trade, the impact of conflict, information flows or the migration of people or ideas. What governments need to do is to understand and respond.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, when he said that people want stability. They do—they want their governments to manage the process of globalisation and to shield them from its effects. But managing that process requires political and economic vision and clarity of purpose. That is why we have made it clear that our commitment to a reform agenda in Europe is from a pro-European rather than from a sceptical standpoint. I do not share the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, that it does not matter if one is pro or sceptical. It does, because it leads to a fundamental difference in approach. Criticism from a standpoint of recognising what has been achieved within the European Union is very different from a relentlessly negative tone, as clearly characterised in our debate by the speeches of the noble Lords, Lord Waddington and Lord Stevens.

Some have described the current situation in the European Union as a crisis. I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Thomson of Monifieth, when he says that it is a much over-used word. I would not go so far as to describe the current situation as a crisis, because there are major areas of EU business which will continue and which need to do so. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, on that matter. In a Union of 25, there will be significant differences of approach;
 
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the challenge is how we deal with those differences, and how we deal sensibly with those areas on which we agree.

I am somewhat surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, have used the term "one size does not fit all", as if that has been our approach. It has not. It has been clear from the start of the Union that it could not speak with one voice on all issues. The purpose is to find areas of collective action which will bring—as I said in my opening remarks—added value. I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Howell and Lord Inglewood, that we are at a moment of opportunity.

As an aside to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, I must say that her opening remarks, in which she praised the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, as the "voice of reason" on Europe's ills, and her later description of the Government's position on the financing perspective as "admirable" certainly gave me some pause for thought.

I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, that we should not be speaking in graphic terms about the death of the Union. But we are at a key moment in its development. I share the view expressed by the noble and learned Lord that there are many areas in which the EU can exercise considerable influence—the areas of foreign and security policy and, indeed, trade policy. That chimes with the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, about how we can spread the benefits of peace, security and democracy that we have achieved in Europe.

The noble Lords, Lord Lawson and Lord Dahrendorf, endorsed the need for a period of reflection. The noble Lord, Lord Thomson of Monifieth, asked, "What is the purpose of Europe now?". My noble friend Lord Tomlinson asserted clearly that we needed to be clear what we were against and what we were for. That is one of the questions that the constitutional treaty should have helped us to answer. Many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Moran, criticised the constitutional treaty for its length, its focus on institutions rather than vision—indeed, for its very name. The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, who was a member of the convention, suggested that member states did not permit the convention to go far enough to reconnect with Europe's citizens.

There are many different interpretations of the failure of the constitutional treaty to connect with some of Europe's citizens—and I use the term "Europe's citizens" because I certainly agree there are European citizens, and that does not mean that I am a federalist.

As I said yesterday, on the basis of the French and Dutch "No" votes, the treaty cannot proceed and it is sensible to have a period of reflection in which the critical questions about Europe's future direction can be debated. Perhaps I can repeat what I said yesterday. The British people will have their opportunity if there is a constitutional treaty to vote on.
 
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The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, asked me whether the Government regard the constitution as dead. I again repeat what I said yesterday. The treaty was agreed by 25 member states and it is not for any one nation state to declare it dead. We have said that we will not have a Second Reading of the EU Bill until there is clarity about how the French and Dutch can proceed with their ratification. The Dutch Prime Minister has said that there is no prospect of his bringing this treaty text back to this Dutch Parliament, which is scheduled to last until 2007.

Earl Ferrers: My Lords, can the noble Baroness clarify that a little? As I understand it, the treaty has to be ratified by every country. If two countries do not ratify it then it cannot be ratified by all. Therefore the treaty must be dead, is it not?

Baroness Amos: My Lords, a political declaration was included within the treaty in which it was made clear that if one or more countries voted "No", the European Council would come back to this matter in 2006. So there is a process; we have described it in this House this afternoon and this evening as an opportunity for pause and a period of reflection. However, a process was built into the constitutional treaty. A declaration was agreed at the weekend at the European Council and that process continues. So no one country at this point can declare the constitutional treaty dead, given that there is a process to be gone through. I explained that yesterday and I have explained it again today.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I am most obliged to the noble Baroness; I am sorry to interrupt her flow. My intervention is on the question that has just been asked. The noble Baroness says that there is a provision in the constitutional treaty that enables the countries to consider the matter if one or two countries vote "No". But am I not correct that the treaty cannot be operative until it has been ratified? It can be ratified only by the people of the various countries by their own arrangements. So how can the proposal in the treaty be enacted if the treaty has not been ratified? How can it be done legally?

Baroness Amos: My Lords, of course there has to be a ratification process. But there was a recognition when member states considered the constitutional treaty that this was a process over a period of time. So the European Council agreed that it would return to this issue in 2006 if all countries had not ratified. That is the current position. Ten countries have ratified; a number of other countries were going to go through referendums. Decisions have been made by some countries to delay those referendums pending further decisions by France and the Netherlands.

I set out to the House what the Dutch Prime Minister has said, which is that he does not intend to return to this issue until 2007. So the European Council will have to consider that as part of the process when it reconsiders the issue next year. It is a process. I think that there is an assumption that all of these decisions will somehow be made in 2005. The British
 
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Government have made it clear that, although we did not set a date for a possible referendum, it was unlikely to be before 2006.

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