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Lord Tanlaw: My Lords, can the Minister say what percentage of the expenditure on R&D covers hydrogen production and storage—in particular, hydrogen storage when linked to wind or water turbines?

Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, we have recently issued a report in answer to the independent
 
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report that came out on hydrogen energy, UK Strategic Framework. The package of measures in that will have funding of £50 million.

Lord Redesdale: My Lords, can the Minister say what efforts are being made to increase the numbers of graduate engineers, because there seems to be a reduction in that regard? Can he also say how much is being spent on R&D in tidal and wave power, because the sums seem to be dwarfed by those that are being ploughed into how to deal with the legacy of the nuclear industry?

Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, the situation with graduate numbers in engineering and technology is the one weak area in the number of young people doing science. The figure has gone down from 87,000 in 1997–98 to about 80,000, but has stabilised at that level in the past few years. Clearly there is an issue there, and we are taking steps to increase the number of graduate engineers.

The figure for R&D in tidal energy is about £50 million, but I shall check that figure and write to the noble Lord if it is not correct.

Lord Tordoff: My Lords, further to that question, can the Minister give us some idea of the proportion of women engineers?

Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I cannot, but I shall write to the noble Lord. It is interesting that a very high proportion—over 40 per cent, I think—of young people doing science and technology, the number of which has increased by 120,000 since 1997–98, are women. However, I shall look at the specific question of women engineers and let the noble Lord know.

Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, is the noble Lord not particularly concerned about the decline in expenditure in R&D and training in the nuclear energy field, particularly in view of the fact that it looks increasingly as though the Government may well be persuaded that nuclear energy and nuclear power stations must be revived in due course?

Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, that has been an area of concern in the context of keeping open the nuclear option. We have taken steps to improve the situation.

Lord Berkeley: My Lords, is it not a fact that, before one builds new nuclear power stations, it would not be a bad idea to dispose safely of the nuclear waste that the existing ones have created? How much research is going into the safe disposal of nuclear waste, rather than storing it or finding places to dump it underground or wherever?

Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, there is a programme on dealing with nuclear waste. I shall write to the noble Lord and let him know exact figures.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, further to the question from my noble friend Lord Roberts about
 
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training and preparation for alternative energy sources to oil and gas, of which nuclear obviously is the chief one, has the Minister noticed that the President of the United States is committing his administration to open up the nuclear programme in America; that Finland is building five new stations; that China is building dozens of new stations; and that all over the world people are reaching decisions that this is the way forward, of course with proper control of nuclear waste? Does he not realise that the training for this programme, even if we open it in 15 years, has to begin now? That training is not taking place. Can he give us a more reassuring and confident answer that we really are gripping this problem?

Lord Sainsbury of Turville: Yes, my Lords, we are aware that, in areas across the world, there has been a change and people are contemplating plans to build new nuclear power stations. The training of engineers is obviously important, and that is why the sector skills council in this area has been doing work on it. There are other sources of nuclear energy expertise in this country. The submarine programme and naval forces have considerable knowledge and expertise of training people in this area.

Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, my noble friend frequently talks about keeping the nuclear option open. Does he have any idea, and can he inform noble Lords, of the date by which that option either has to be taken up or is closed down?

Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, the Prime Minister has made it quite clear that during this Parliament a decision will have to be reached on the whole nuclear question.

Terrorism: Protection of Public Buildings

3.3 pm

Lord Thomas of Swynnerton asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will seek ways to ensure that the substantial obstacles placed before public buildings in order to withstand terrorist attack are made more aesthetically acceptable.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, when providing specialist protective security advice to site owners, the police and the Security Service work closely with planning and transport authorities from an early stage to ensure that security, transport, environmental and design considerations are fully identified and addressed. The Government's research and development programme currently includes work to update techniques to mitigate the potential effects of hostile vehicle threat in line with the latest information about terrorist attack methodologies,
 
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and that has already resulted in a range of temporary and permanent measures that can be deployed in urban and rural settings.

Lord Thomas of Swynnerton: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply and I realise that security anxieties are likely to last a long time. But do not the Government think that it would be appropriate and in keeping with our national traditions and urban standards if some of the eyesores which we encounter, particularly when arriving at this House or looking at the Foreign Office from St James's Park or looking at the Cabinet Offices from Horse Guards, might be replaced in keeping with aesthetic designs without any loss of security, that work perhaps being undertaken in collaboration with an architect with industrial and engineering experience?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that the Government are very conscious that some of the temporary measures are not perhaps as aesthetically pleasing as one would like but they are effective as regards risk management. I certainly assure noble Lords that the design of such structures is very much taken into account. Although short-term measures may not be as pleasing to the eye as we would like, other measures are well in place and could be used in the future.

Lord Filkin: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the security arrangements outside the Italian parliament building in Rome comprise concrete blocks which we know and love, but that theirs are filled with flowers which look beautiful? May I invite my noble friend to come on a trip of inspection with me to see what is possible?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I would be delighted to go anywhere with my noble friend, as he knows. However, I reassure noble Lords that we understand the ways in which these measures can be adapted and changed. Those issues are being very carefully looked at. Short-term effective reduction in vulnerability is one thing, longer term permanent structures are another. Those issues are of real importance.

Lord Dholakia: My Lords, how far have the plans for pedestrianisation of the Westminster area advanced, particularly outside Parliament? Would such obstacles be necessary with that approach?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I cannot comment on pedestrianisation as noble Lords will know that that is not within my ken. These structures are very carefully calibrated. The most important factor is for them to be effective but the design issue is also important. Noble Lords will know that there are other buildings which I am not at liberty to name with precision which have more aesthetically pleasing barriers. That is something to which we can aspire in due course.

Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, the noble Baroness indicated that these arrangements may have to
 
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continue for some considerable time. Does she agree that the American Embassy constitutes one of the most hideous examples of security arrangements in the capital? As it is clear that security arrangements at the embassy will have to continue for some time or for as far as one can see into the future, cannot steps be taken with our American allies to ensure that it no longer looks like a temporary labour camp in some east European country but that something is done to make it aesthetically acceptable as well as secure?

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