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UK Financial Institutions: Stolen Assets
2.57 pm
Lord Wallace of Saltaire asked Her Majesty's Government:
How they intend to follow up Labour's election manifesto commitment to "work for faster repatriation of stolen assets from United Kingdom financial institutions".
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, the Government intend to fulfil this manifesto pledge by the ratification of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption. Ratification now depends on introducing Orders in Council under Part 11 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, which will strengthen and expedite the United Kingdom's ability to assist countries in the freezing, confiscation and return of stolen assets.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. We welcomed that clause in the very lengthy Labour Party manifesto. Does she accept that so far the City of London has been very slow in tracing and returning assets stolen from African states, particularly Nigeria, over the past 10 years, and that if we are to see a very welcome surge in Western aid to Africa, we need to be certain that some of it is not leached out again through the City of London illegally?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his welcome. Of course we accept that there are challenges in tracking the proceeds wrongly removed from countries and returning them to them. We are looking at the issue. I accept the import of the noble Lord's question; namely, that it is important that we have robust mechanisms here and not just in other countries.
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Lord Hylton: My Lords, is it not the case that Nigeria lost some $200 billion, mainly during the Abacha regime; that it took an unacceptably long time to recover those sums, which may not have been wholly recovered; and that at that time this country was reliant on war-time regulations to do anything about it? Has the situation been improved since then?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, it has been improved. As noble Lords know, before the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, the system that was applied was cumbersome and difficult. The whole purpose of the Proceeds of Crime Act was to liberate the procedure, so that we could address the matter in a more appropriate and effective way. We have been able to do that. The amount of money that we recover is greatly improved.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, will the United Nations Convention Against Corruption order, which the noble Baroness mentioned, apply to the Channel Islands, as well as the United Kingdom?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, as noble Lords will know, the United Kingdom includes all those parts of it.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I had understood that the Channel Islands were not, for a great many purposes, part of the United Kingdom and, indeed, were Crown dependencies.
When the convention has been signed or ratified by the United Kingdom, will there be implications for further domestic legislation to implement it?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I made it clear in my Answer that the measures would be brought in by way of Orders in Council. We will look very carefully to see whether further legislation might be necessary. At the moment, it does not appear to be, but that scrutiny will continue.
The Lord Bishop of Chester: My Lords, given the careful procedures that now apply when new bank accounts are opened, is there a case for applying those procedures to accounts opened in the past, where there is prima facie evidence that they may harbour assets that have been wrongly expropriated?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, if an application is made under the Proceeds of Crime Act relating to assets that are the proceeds of a crime, we will, provided that the current legislation applies to those assets—wherever they may be—be able to recover them. It will be crucial to look at the particular facts of a given case to ascertain whether the Act applies.
Lord Tomlinson: My Lords—
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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Rooker): My Lords, we have plenty of time to hear from both the Labour and the Conservative Benches. Perhaps we should hear first from the noble Earl.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, I was going to give way to the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, before I was so kindly invited to speak.
Will the noble Baroness enlighten me about this example? Let us assume that aid is being given for a large project in Country A and that the Government of Country A say that you have to go through an agent to send out the contract. The agent happens to be the president's brother and charges 50 per cent. In normal practice, anybody would view that as corrupt, but it comes under the heading of something that is legal in that country. How do we stop that sort of habit being normal practice? I believe that running closed agencies with your brother is a source of great corruption in these parts of the world.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, for assets to be recovered, there would first have to be a conviction in that country to indicate that the assets had been improperly received. It would be necessary to see whether what was done in that country was, in fact, illegal. Most countries would say that something such as the noble Earl has just described would probably be corrupt, but it would depend on the legislation in that state.
I give that as an off-the-cuff answer. If I am wrong, I shall write to the noble Earl.
Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, it is clear that the Abacha regime has bled Nigeria dry and that many of those illegally acquired assets are held in the United Kingdom. Is it not seriously regrettable that the United Kingdom has been substantially slower than Switzerland, which is renowned for its banking secrecy, in doing something about that? Talking about proposed Orders in Council does not seem to be a message that conveys the necessary urgency.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I shall deal with the last matter first, the point about necessary urgency. I reassure my noble friend that we are working as hard as we can to make sure that the Orders in Council are brought forward expeditiously. Noble Lords will know that they are complex Orders in Council and will take some time, but expedition is of great importance.
I do not accept what my noble friend said about this country being dilatory about returning money to Nigeria. We of course had to stay within the law as it then was. The United Kingdom provided as much assistance as was possible in the case of Abacha and transmitted documentary evidence to Nigeria in December 2004. No money has been returned to Nigeria from the United Kingdom, although some assets are currently restrained under a civil order. I assure my noble friend that we have done absolutely everything that we properly can.
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Office for Disability Issues
3.5 pm
Lord Ashley of Stoke asked Her Majesty's Government:
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My Lords, my honourable friend the Minister for Disabled People is leading a cross-departmental group of Ministers to steer the implementation of the Strategy Unit report. At its next meeting, the group will consider questions about the timing, role and remit of an office for disability issues.
Lord Ashley of Stoke: My Lords, does the Minister agree that this development means that disabled people will now have a strong voice across government departments, especially on such important issues as independent living? But, if the Government are so keen on independent living—they have said that they support it—why have they allocated no funds so far? What are my noble friend and his colleagues in the department doing about that? Without cash, clearly the concept is barren and useless.
Does the Minister further agree that this development may well ensure that all government documents are put in a form which will be understood by disabled people? Can he assure us that that will be done?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I certainly hope that all government documents are in a form that everyone can understand. I suspect that we have a little way to go there. Of course, my noble friend is right. Independent living is a very important development for disabled people. The proposed office will help the ministerial group which will meet across government in order to implement the report and the recommendations contained in it. As I said last month when we debated a similar question, funding will be considered by the ministerial group in due course.
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