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Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, is there any reason of which the Minister can think why the position as he describes it should not be put in clear terms in the Bill?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, there is a good reason when one considers the material impact of what these amendments would achieve. There has been no opportunity for any discussion outside your Lordships' House about what this would mean and imply for those currently employed within the Home Civil Service, and no doubt they will have powerful views to be expressed on those subjects. We need to know and understand how they might feel about that.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: With respect, my Lords, I do not think the Minister answered the question of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. He asked why the status quo, under the delegation described by the Minister, could not be put in the Bill. If there is retention in the hands of the Minister of the power to revoke that delegation, as there is, it is all very well saying that it is present custom and practice; those can change at the decision of the Minister. That is what we are not willing to see in the Bill.
 
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If the Minister is saying that we should have consulted on this arcane issue before, it would have been helpful had he given us some warning of it. He knows how strongly we feel, because this is not a new amendment. I put back to him the fact that, if my amendment would change the status of the employees of the Charity Commission to their disadvantage, it is a straightforward matter for the Minister to bring back an amendment at Third Reading to say, quite simply, that their status is unchanged by this amendment. On the basis of past debates on this issue and debate today, I believe that the issue should be put to the House for determination.

5.35 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 10) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 166; Not-Contents, 134


Division No. 2


CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Caithness, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chidgey, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodlad, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laidlaw, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Peel, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tonge, B.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Tugendhat, L.
Tyler, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Weatherill, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Bilston, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Calton, B.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Corston, B.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kinnock, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Nicol, B.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prosser, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.


Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.


 
12 Oct 2005 : Column 330
 
5.47 pm

Schedule 2 [Establishment of the Charity Commission: supplementary]:

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 11:

Page 81, line 8, leave out "for England and Wales"


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