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Lord Swinfen moved Amendment No. 14:

Page 7, line 20, leave out ", so far as relevant,"

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move.

6.12 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 14) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 79; Not-Contents, 130

Division No. 3


Astor of Hever, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Bowness, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Caithness, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cobbold, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Crathorne, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dundee, E.
Eccles, V.
Elton, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Howard of Rising, L. [Teller]
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Patten, L.
Peel, E.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Swinfen, L. [Teller]
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Windlesham, L.


Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President of the Council.]
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Clark of Calton, B.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Corston, B.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Nicol, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prosser, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

12 Oct 2005 : Column 338
6.22 pm

Lord Swinfen had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 15:

Page 7, line 25, at end insert "and shall be fair and reasonable"

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in view of the vote on the previous amendment, I shall not move this one.

[Amendment No. 15 not moved.]

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 16:

Page 7, line 25, at end insert—

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has tabled Amendment No. 17 as an amendment to the Government's amendment. On
12 Oct 2005 : Column 339
28 June, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, moved an amendment that would have given the Charity Commission the general function of facilitating development and innovation in the charitable sector. On a Division, your Lordships' House produced a tied vote, which meant that, by the narrowest margin, the amendment was not carried.

Since then, we have reflected further on the matter. We see merit in the proposition of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, which, I understand, is supported by the Charity Commission, so we have devised an amendment to give effect to it. Rather than give the Charity Commission a new general function of facilitating innovation, our amendment would give it a new duty that would apply to it in carrying out all its functions. The wording of the duty is very closely based on that of the equivalent duty applying to the Financial Services Authority, which the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, has commended to your Lordships' House in the past.

I have also reflected further on the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. There may be a way in which we can incorporate it into the government amendment. In view of that, I hope that we now have unanimity on the issue across your Lordships' House. I beg to move.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 16, Amendment No. 17:

Line 2, after "must" insert ", where appropriate,"

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am grateful for the undertaking that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, gave at the end of his introduction of Amendment No. 16. It leaves me with little to say beyond the fact that NCVO, among many charities, was anxious about the effect of placing just a bare duty on the commission to have regard to the desirability of facilitating innovation. Just adding the words "where appropriate" or something like that would dispel its anxiety that an intervening commission could thunder around requiring innovation on all occasions by all charities—although that is highly unlikely, one must allow for the possibility. Many charities are not in the business of innovation at all; for example, almshouses are in the business of anything but that. I beg to move.

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: My Lords, I thank the Government and the Minister for taking on board the result of the score draw on 28 June. I accept that the Charity Commission is at root a regulator and therefore needs to keep an eye on the road immediately in front of it, but from time to time it should raise its eyes to the hills and think more strategically and dynamically about the sector that it regulates. I am extremely grateful that the Government have taken our proposal on board. I am delighted with the amendment and thank the Minister very much.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
12 Oct 2005 : Column 340

Amendment No. 17, as an amendment to Amendment No. 16, by leave, withdrawn.

On Question, Amendment No. 16 agreed to.

6.30 pm

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