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Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 106:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 107:
(1) Section 79 of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 (interpretation of Part 2) is amended as follows.
(2) For subsection (3)(a) substitute—
"(a) any reference to a Minister included a reference to the Forestry Commissioners or to the Charity Commission;
(aa) any reference to an officer in relation to the Charity Commission were a reference to a member or member of staff of the Commission; and".
(3) In subsection (4) after "those Commissioners" insert "or that Commission"."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of the amendment is to preserve the position of the Charity Commission under the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994. Currently, the Charity Commissioners would be regarded as an office-holder under Part 2 of
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that Act, which would enable the contracting out of any of their functions which come within Section 69(1) of that Act, where a Minister makes an order providing for such contracting out.
This provision amends the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 to provide that for the purposes of Part 2 of that Act any reference to a Minister includes a reference to the Charity Commission, such that any function of the commission to which Section 69 applies could be contracted out if a Minister by order so provides. However, the commission would not be able to make use of the ministerial order-making powers in Sections 69 and 70 of that Act. So the commission itself would not be able to make an order providing for the contracting out of any of its functions.
We currently have no specific plans for the use of this power. However, we believe that the amendment will preserve the flexibility to contract out a function of the commission if it is considered appropriate to do so in future. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendments Nos. 108 and 109:
| "Section 44(3)." |
| "Regulatory Reform (National Health Service Charitable and Non-Charitable Trust Accounts and Audit) Order 2005 (S.I. 2005/1074) | Article 3(5)." |
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 10 [Transitional provisions and savings]:
6.15 pm
Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 110:
Any consultation initiated by the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales before the day on which section 4 of this Act comes into force is to be as effective for the purposes of section 4(4)(a) as if it had been initiated by the Commission on or after that day."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to move Amendment No. 110 standing in the name of my noble friend Lady Scotland. Under Part 1 of the Bill the new Charity Commission will have a duty to issue guidance in pursuit of its public benefit objective and a duty to carry out such public and other consultation as it considers appropriate and wise before issuing the guidance.
Our current intention is to bring Part 1 of the Bill together with the provisions creating the new provision into force on the earliest appropriate date. As the Bill is drafted, consultation on the public benefit guidance would not in practice begin before that commencement date. This is because consultation carried out before the new commission comes into existence would not count towards discharging the
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new commission's consultation duty. The practical result of that would be a delay in issuing the public benefit guidance while a valid consultation was constructed and completed. It is clearly desirable that the period between the provisions concerning the public benefit requirement taking effect and the appearance of the commission's guidance should be as short as possible. This amendment will greatly help in that respect because it will treat any consultation carried out by the current commission before commencement as if it were consultation carried out by the new commission after commencement. I understand from the Charity Commission that it would propose to begin consultation as early as possible.
In summary, the amendment will allow a head start to be made in the consultation required before the issue of guidance on general public benefit principles applying to all charities, so that it can be issued much sooner after commencement than would otherwise be possible. I am sure that because the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, is very keen on this he will support the amendment very enthusiastically. I beg to move.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I am indeed going to support the amendment with enthusiasm so long as I have an assurance that the Government will not have their consultation before this Bill has been through the Commons. We know they have a cast-iron majority there, but I am sure that it would be polite to await the consideration at the other end.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: My Lords, my question follows to some extent what the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, said. I understand the practical implications of this, but there were some fairly weasel words about "earliest appropriate date" and "as early as possible". Out there in the charity world there is interest in this matter and the timetable the Government expect to work to. Perhaps the Minister could lift the green baize curtain a little and tell us a bit about what the Government have in mind, given the normal sorts of legislative progress, regarding the "earliest appropriate date" for implementation and "as early as possible", in terms of the commission starting the consultation. Wherever one may stand on that particular issue there is a great deal of interest in what the practical implications of this delightfully introduced Amendment No. 110 would be. So I should be grateful if the Minister could give us some guidance.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the thing is that weasely words have a value, and we all know that. I am not going to hover around and define them further, but basically we want this to go ahead as soon as can get on with it. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, made the point that it ought to be after the clauses have had proper consideration in another place. That is a fair point. I shall see whether I can get some idea from my officials and advisers about what the timetable is and
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then let colleagues who are enwrapped by this provision have some idea of how it looks. Perhaps that will satisfy both noble Lords.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I am grateful for what he said. Will he give the House an assurance that the huge extra task that will be placed on the shoulders of the commission in this regard will be reflected in the available staff resources?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord knows that I cannot go around interfering in the detailed staffing of the Charity Commission. That would be quite wrong. It is an independent organisation, as the noble Lord well knows. We have had lots of debate about that issue over the past nine months or so. I am sure that the Charity Commission will put the resource required into it because we all understand that this is a very important issue. It has been the subject of public debate. It is new and it will be a real test for those involved in charity work. I am sure that the commission will have heard what the noble Lord said and be taking very careful note of it. I think he is right to encourage it to do so.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 111:
"12 Sections 73D and 73DA of the 1993 Act (as inserted by section 37 of this Act) have effect in relation to acts or omissions occurring before the day on which section 37 comes into force as well as in relation to those occurring on or after that day."
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 74 [Pre-consolidation amendments]:
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