---

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: It is a pleasure to speak to Amendments Nos. 37, 39, 40, 61 and 63. Also, in the unavoidable absence of the noble Baroness, Lady
 
26 Oct 2005 : Column GC326
 
Finlay of Llandaff, I shall speak to Amendment No. 38. Regarding the comments made by the Minister about some of those amendments, in particular, the issue of non-devolved bodies, I wholly accept that we do not wish interminably to debate them. None the less, I shall speak to them in order and make a simple point about each.

Amendment No. 37 lists additional bodies that would be subject to review: the air ambulance, ambulance services and trusts and voluntary organisations. We thank the Minister for accepting in his Amendment No. 36 the addition of the National Leadership and Innovations Agency for Healthcare. That was felt by a number of bodies to be important, and we are pleased that that has been accepted. None the less, I think I am right in saying that, although the Minister said that such matters were covered by NHS trusts et cetera, the air ambulance does not come into that category. I may be wrong, but I have not seen an air ambulance flying around Wales with "NHS trust" on its side. Voluntary organisations are also important. I am sure that the Assembly, in drawing up regulations, will take account of representations that have been made, but if certain organisations are to be in the Bill, I do not understand why other organisations could not be there too.

Amendment No. 38, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and supported by others, adds police authorities to the list. I realise that they are non-devolved bodies controlled from Westminster, although police authorities are represented by local authorities throughout Wales and it is the police areas that are controlled by Westminster. But as far as consultation is concerned those authorities are involved in local government. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, says that the police are important to older people's health and welfare. They interact with older people who are victims of crime and witnesses to crime in an important way. The police also have good relations with local health and social services in relation to older people. The noble Baroness feels, as we do, that it is desirable that police authorities be included.

Amendment No. 39 would add a number of non-devolved bodies to the list in Schedule 2. We would really like the Pension Service, the Benefits Agency, the civil and criminal courts, HM Revenue and Customs, Jobcentre Plus, the Employment Tribunals Service and any other UK-wide body to be included. Older people have been involved with those bodies, which are important in their lives. We are concerned that the commissioner will not at least be able in those circumstances to write reports in relation to those bodies and their impact on older people.

The problem is that we should be debating earlier in this Parliament the governance of Wales Bill, in which the powers to be devolved in the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill would be clear and could be debated in a more logical way than is possible at the moment. It could well be that in six to nine months' time, when we have a new governance of Wales Act, we might be able to achieve a rather more logical process
 
26 Oct 2005 : Column GC327
 
for the Commissioner for Older People in Wales. I make that point once only, but it is something that we feel strongly about.

Amendment No. 40 would provide that the commissioner should undertake an annual review of the list of persons in Schedule 2 and report his findings to the Assembly. That is fairly straightforward. Amendment No. 61 would include,

"A voluntary organisation",

under the "Education and training" heading in Schedule 3. We regard that as important in relation to that part of the Bill. Amendment No. 63 would insert into Clause 7—the Minister mentioned it in his opening remarks—a requirement for the commissioner to undertake an annual review of the list of persons in Schedule 3 and to report his findings to the National Assembly for Wales.

We have raised a number of issues. Obviously we thought hard before tabling the amendments, and we feel that they will improve the Bill. However, the remarks that I made about non-devolved bodies are relevant in this respect.

3.45 pm

Lord Rowlands: I support my noble friend's position, as I did at the last sitting of the Committee. It is important that we do not blur the distinction of constitutional accountability between the powers that have and have not been devolved. However, I suggest that in the case of police authorities there is a rather different and better case to be made.

When I sat on the Richard commission, for example, I had the impression that police authorities worked extremely closely with Assembly organisations and had entered into a large number of partnership agreements of one kind or another with them. There is a close interface between the work of the police authorities and much of the Assembly's work in social services and elsewhere. I suggest that, while maintaining the principle, the Minister should look at a way in which the police authorities could relate to the work of the commissioner because, as the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, said, there is an important interface between elderly people and the police.

Whereas other organisations are more clearly non-devolved, the work of the police authorities and their relationships with the Assembly are in a rather different category from the other bodies listed in Amendment No. 39. I hope that my noble friend will look carefully at Amendment No. 38 and consider a way, perhaps ingeniously, in which the commissioner may have a relationship with the police authorities. I certainly support my noble friend in rejecting Amendment No. 39.

Lord Roberts of Conwy: I shall be brief. I welcome Amendment No. 36 and the addition of the National Leadership and Innovations Agency for Healthcare. Although I accept what the Government have said about the commissioner's role in relation to non-devolved areas, it is not absolutely clear to me that the ambulance services and trusts mentioned in
 
26 Oct 2005 : Column GC328
 
Amendment No. 37 fall into that category. I understood that the Assembly had some responsibility for ambulance services and trusts.

Similarly, I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, of the police authorities, which are again in part supported financially by the Assembly and local government in Wales. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify how the police authorities come to be exempt although, strictly speaking, they are not in a non-devolved area.

Lord Prys-Davies: The Government of Wales Act 1998 in no way affects the power of Parliament to legislate as it sees fit. It is my hope that, in the longer term, the Government may be persuaded to re-examine their attitude towards some of the amendments.

There is one amendment on which I would be grateful for clarification, which my noble friend has rejected. I refer to Amendment No. 61, which would insert the words "a voluntary organisation". Can my noble friend confirm that, where a service for the elderly is contracted out to a voluntary organisation to undertake, that will not put the particular service beyond the reach of the commissioner?

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: The central statement in the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, about the governance of Wales Bill coming before this one, was an expression of wish. We have a political reality and, for whatever reason, we are proceeding with this Bill now. We cannot change the settlement as we go through it. We can talk about it, but we are not going to get anywhere. I left a little door open by saying that we may have possibilities to pursue the matter when the Bill returns to the Floor of the House.

I can be pressed as hard as you like, but I cannot make any movement, for incredibly obvious reasons, on the matter about which the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, and his colleagues feel so strongly, which is a running theme through many of the amendments. I apologise for that. If I am forced to say it over and over again between now and 7.30 pm, I will do so—but unhappily.

We are talking about the non-devolved bodies. Of course, there will be co-operation between the Assembly and the commissioner but, for reasons that are obvious, that cannot be in the Bill. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that the police are crucial to the welfare of older people and play an enormously important role in their lives. Policing is not at the moment a devolved matter, but the police will still be able to do the very good work for older people that they do now. The commissioner of police can make representations to the Assembly even if non-devolved bodies are included in the Bill. It may ultimately be possible for police authorities to be added to the list in Schedule 2 if the Secretary of State consents. He has not been asked that question, but it is a possibility.
 
26 Oct 2005 : Column GC329
 

Given Amendment No. 36, the umbrella reason that I have given for not accepting the other amendments and the encouragement that I have given about policing, I hope that the noble Lord will be able to withdraw the amendment.

---