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Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her lecture on Mandla. However, she needs to read the judgments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Slynn, and the others to which I referred which deal with the point that was not dealt with in Mandla; that is, whether Jews are covered
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under the Race Relations Act on the basis of ethnicity or religion. The law clearly states that they are covered on the basis of ethnicity. It was that point I was trying to deal with. The Mandla case does not deal with that as such at all.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, we are dealing not simply with the Jewish community but also with the Sikh community. Mandla dealt directly with the Sikh community and its definition. That definition sought to distinguish the kind of issues which can identify people as a group. That by no means undermines the fact that those two groups have a different history but it clearly uses the definition I mentioned, which we consider is a helpful definition.

I understand absolutely that the noble Lord would prefer this whole issue to be included in the discrimination review. However, we cannot accept that. If that were to be done, there would be no provision which referred to harassment in relation to this category, which is dealt with quite properly under Clause 45. It is simply not a satisfactory solution to say that these provisions can work. As regards the whole issue of discrimination law, the discrimination law review may well come up with a construct that is significantly different from that which we currently have in relation to a number of species of discrimination. The law that we have in each of these areas may change, and change significantly, once that review is complete. However, we have to deal with the situation until the conclusions of that review are issued. We seek to give appropriate protection to all those who may be significantly disadvantaged and discriminated against in relation to the way in which public services are given to them, and in relation to education and accommodation. All of those things are fundamental to the way in which people lead their lives. I respectfully suggest that it would be unjust not to deal with this wrong in a similar way to all the others.

I say with all the gentleness which I can muster that if one looks at the provisions which were mooted on behalf of those who are discriminated against on the ground of sexual orientation, and one compares those provisions with all the other provisions in this area, one sees that they are almost identical, and not significantly different from that which we wish to implement in relation to religious belief. The difference is that we have not extended the provision to goods and services for the reasons that we have given. Therefore, I invite noble Lords to think very seriously indeed before expunging—because that is what it would amount to—from the Bill an opportunity to prevent people being seriously disadvantaged and to give them better protection. I understand what the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said in relation to those two words. However, I reassure her that those will be
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exactly the issues in relation to all the species of discrimination that the discrimination law review will consider. We will not have to wait very long for that.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, is it possible for her to answer my point about procedure?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, as I understand it, the amendments will be dealt with in order. I believe that the vote would be taken first on the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller. If that amendment were carried, I believe that the vote on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, could still take place, but votes could not be taken on the other amendments as they would all fall away. That is my understanding. I am sure that someone will correct me if I have misunderstood the procedure.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, could the vote on the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, take place if Amendment No. 12 were passed?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, that is right and I can see various people around the House nodding in agreement. However, the other amendments would fall away, because that part would no longer be there.

Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I listened very carefully to the Minister with real regret—not just mild regret, but real, passionate regret—because I feel that the Government are making a great mistake. Having said that, I would like to thank my noble friend Lady Carnegy and my noble and learned friend Lord Lyell for the support that they gave to my amendment. But the hour is late and, despite the fact that I said I would definitely divide the House, the truth is that the Government are against me, the Liberals will not vote on my amendment at all, and if I delay the House even longer, I understand from the noble Lord, Lord Lester, that he would have great difficulty in keeping his troops for the next amendment.

I make those points because I feel very strongly about this issue. On the other hand, with those two words left there, I cannot possibly accept that Clause 45 should stay in the Bill. Under those circumstances I am pleased to agree with what the noble Lord has said to me and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 13:

"(5) Action taken in connection with the display of any material or article is harassment for the purposes of subsection (1) only if taken for the purpose of producing a result specified in subsection (1)(a) or (b)."

On Question, amendment agreed to.
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Lord Lester of Herne Hill moved Amendment No. 14:

6.2 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 14) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 216; Not-Contents, 126

Division No. 1


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alliance, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Ashcroft, L.
Avebury, L.
Bagri, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dearing, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glenarthur, L.
Goodhart, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Inge, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Newcastle, Bp.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Parkinson, L.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saatchi, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Skelmersdale, L.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tombs, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tyler, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Winchester, Bp.
Windlesham, L.


Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adebowale, L.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President of the Council.]
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Macaulay of Bragar, L.
McDonagh, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Nicol, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prosser, B.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Snape, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Stratford, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

9 Nov 2005 : Column 670
6.15 pm

Clause 47 [Premises]:

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