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The Earl of Northesk: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. While I acknowledge that the prison estate in Scotland is the responsibility of the Scottish Executive, is it not the case that a fingerprint recognition system was installed at Glenochil high security prison? Is it not also the case that, within short order of it having been installed, inmates had spoofed and circumvented the system and gained access to all parts of the prison—even to the extent, as some prison staff have suggested, of settling old scores?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am afraid I can make no comment on that. In all the prisons in England, Wales and Northern Ireland where these systems have been put in, they have worked remarkably well and we have had no escapes at all.

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, surely the Minister can confirm whether my noble friend's version of events north of the Border is true. She must know that it would be helpful to the House if she were able to confirm it or not.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am sorry to say I do not have any details about that matter. I am more than happy to check and write to the noble Lord, but there is nothing in my briefing to indicate that biometrics of this sort has caused any difficulty, although most of that briefing is on Northern Ireland, England and Wales.

Lord Dholakia: My Lords, has the Minister given any thought to the cost of biometric ID cards, particularly as this affects prisoners and claimants, and who is likely to meet this cost?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, biometric ID cards will relate to any citizen who seeks to apply
 
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for them, so there will be no different provisions for those who are in prison. This Question deals with the extent to which we are using biometric data to monitor those who go into and out of prison and who are within prison. As I have said, we have recently been using biometric identifiers to very good effect.

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, if what the noble Earl has said is correct, is it not an indication that the Scots, as usual, are ahead of the English?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, it would be quite invidious for me to comment on whether prisoners and officers in England, Wales and Northern Ireland are intrinsically more honourable than elsewhere across the Border. I would be loath to say that.

Lord Elton: My Lords, which characteristics are the biometric measurements taken from? Are they just thumbprints or fingerprints? Is this the same range of characteristics as is intended to be employed for the future identity card scheme?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, various schemes are currently in place. Seven prisons use fingerprint biometrics, 15 prisons use fingerprint and photo biometrics, 10 prisons use single fingerprints alone and two prisons use hand geometry. A mixture of biometrics is used, depending on the level of security and the needs of the particular prison establishment.

Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, while I accept that the Minister has nothing in her brief about the situation in Scotland, what my noble friend was asking about, as I understand it, was the biometric operation of door locks between various parts of an individual prison estate, which have been circumvented by prisoners. Do such door locks occur in England, Wales or Northern Ireland?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, from the information I have, there has been no difficulty; the difficulty experienced before the introduction of biometric identifiers has been resolved. For instance, in a number of prisons in Northern Ireland, staff use a palm identifier to get in and out of certain areas, which has greatly enhanced security. It has also reduced costs, because no more passes have had to be produced. People have found it extremely useful, which is one of the reasons we are looking at this more closely with regard to roll-out.

Court Fees

2.49 pm

Lord Ackner asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether, since 1992, they have sought the approval of Parliament for their decision to recover from litigants in civil cases the full costs of the
 
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proceedings, including, inter alia, the provision of judges' salaries and pensions and court buildings; and, if so, when and how.

The Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs and Lord Chancellor (Lord Falconer of Thoroton): My Lords, it has been the policy of successive governments, at least since the 1920s, that the costs of court administration in civil cases should be defrayed by litigants' fees. Over time, the range of costs taken into account when setting fees has varied. In 1992, the government of the day decided that, in line with general government fee-charging policy, court fees in civil cases should be set to reflect the full cost of providing the service, with the exception of those areas where there is some subsidy. That meant including, for the first time, the salaries of the full-time senior judiciary—circuit judges and above—paid direct from the Consolidated Fund. That decision was not subject to consultation.

Lord Ackner: My Lords, I have three questions for my noble and learned friend. They grow progressively shorter—the last one is very short indeed. First, does the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor recall that the former Lord Chief Justice and the current Lord Chief Justice, both acting on behalf of the Civil Justice Council and the civil justice review, raised strong objections to the civil courts making that recovery on two grounds: first, there was a failure to recognise the collective benefit in the administration of civil justice and, secondly, it seriously weakened access to justice?

Secondly, does the Minister recall the decision of the Divisional Court in 1998—Queen's Bench 575, Queen v. Lord Chancellor, Ex parte Witham—in which, in a very full reserved judgment, Mr Justice Laws said:

"Access to the courts is a constitutional right; it can only be denied by the government if it persuades Parliament to pass legislation which specifically—in effect by express provision—permits the executive to turn people away from the court door"?

My final question—

Lord Grocott: My Lords, with respect, the Companion says that noble Lords should ask two questions. We should now move on and hear the two answers.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, on the first question, whether I recall what the Lord Chief Justice and the former Lord Chief Justice said: yes, I do. The issue that has to be addressed is a balance between charging those who use the civil courts reasonable fees and ensuring that those who cannot afford them are not denied access to justice. We seek to do that by having reasonable levels of fees and, at the same time, providing subsidy for people who would otherwise not be able to come to court. We are consulting on increases in court fees and those very issues will be considered in the course of the consultation. Secondly, do I recall the case in 1998? Yes, I do.

Lord Goodhart: My Lords, the Question concerns parliamentary scrutiny. The principle that court fees
 
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should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny, at least in limited cases, was recognised by Section 92 of the Courts Act 2003. Is it not now time that that principle was made of general application, particularly in view of the fact that excessive court fees are a serious threat to access to justice?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, a balance has to be struck. There should be widespread consultation; there should be complete openness on proposals to increase fees. Ultimately, the principle has been established that where a party has used the civil courts—for example, a large commercial organisation—there is nothing wrong in principle in charging it for that.

Lord Ackner: My Lords, perhaps I may squeak in my third question. Why has Parliament been given no opportunity to debate this matter?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, there is currently consultation in relation to whether, and if so by how much, the fees should be raised. It is only after that consultation that the question of parliamentary scrutiny would arise.

Home Improvements

2.54 pm

Lord Ezra: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In so doing I declare a long-standing interest in the National Home Improvement Council.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to encourage home improvements in the private housing sector.

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