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Baroness Morris of Bolton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that full and, as always, gracious reply. However, I am disappointed that she cannot accept our amendments, because I genuinely believe that she wants to see better outcomes. I stress that we are not talking about equal parenting. We recognise that as children grow their needs will change, but a parent who feels secure in their relationship with their child will not be as rigid as they are if they are fearful that they will lose contact with their child.
I thank all noble Lords for such a thoughtful debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, for his support for our amendments. He was absolutely right that it is important that the message sent out to parents is not buried in case law. We discussed with the Minister last week how to get information to parents. Yes, you can open telephone helplines and print leaflets, or get a storyline going in a soap, but to change the law would be like nailing the information to every lamp post in the country. The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, talked about unreasonable people, but the system makes people unreasonable. She talked about the few, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, at the hard end of the process. They will always be there; but there are many who do not even seek recourse in the courts because they fear the system. There are no certainties; they are unsure of the outcomes, and it is expensive, so they settle for second best, fearful that what little contact they have could be lost. That is the silent majority that we are also seeking to help. We must be careful not to penalise the majority because of the few. We need robust safety measures set against the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said that she could not support us because other things needed to happen first, but all other measures without a change in the law are like running a bath without putting the plug in.
On Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Howe said:
"Legislation that is presented to Parliament, no matter what its content, should aim to do one thing—to make the world a better place, to put it in the broadest of terms. If we were trying to sum up what we wanted to do to make the world better for those parents whose marriages were breaking up, we would say this. We want to help children continue to see and spend time with both their parents, wherever violence is not an issue".—[Official Report, 29/6/05; col. 282.]
I simply cannot begin to think what life would be like if I could not see my children or I was told I could only see them every now and then. Over the course of this Bill my noble friend Lord Howe and I have been privileged to meet some truly wonderful people. They are good decent people. They come from different backgrounds, different parts of the country and different age groups. They are united by their grief because they cannot see their children. In their name I would like to test the opinion of the House.
14 Nov 2005 : Column 850
4.15 pm
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 94; Not-Contents, 190
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bowness, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chan, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Courtown, E.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Feldman, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hanham, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Quirk, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Renton, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thatcher, B.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Windlesham, L.
Addington, L.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President of the Council.]
Ampthill, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bilston, L.
Blood, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Calton, B.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Corston, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Drayson, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Garden, L.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Gregson, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kinnock, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laird, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
McDonagh, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Murphy, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich, Bp.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soley, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Worcester, Bp.
Young of Hornsey, B.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
14 Nov 2005 : Column 852
4.30 pm
Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 2:
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