Previous Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page

Viscount Astor: My Lords, the Minister said that we are having a jolly debate on the Licensing Act. However, neither the noble Lord, Lord McNally, nor I discussed the Licensing Act. We were discussing the implications of the Licensing Act because of the guidance that had been published by the Government. That was our debate. I have to say that the Minister has totally failed to answer any of the major questions that we put to him. It was a most disappointing answer. I realise that he has the unfortunate task of being a spokesman for the department without having any responsibility for the policy, but I have to say that he has been let down by his colleagues in another place. He kindly said that he would look at the definition of "in the vicinity" as regards objections, and he also said that the Government would review the ability of councillors to address their licensing sub-committees and objections. However, he did not mention the fact that two Labour councillors in Newcastle have to pay the costs of an appeal on a licence. Is that something of which the Government approve? Is that going to be replicated whenever councillors appeal against a large pub or club operator gaining a licence? He did not address that point at all.
14 Nov 2005 : Column 914

There were a number of other points that the Minister did not address, such as staggered closing times and the problems that that brings. However, environmental health officers already have the power to close noisy premises and it is just not true to say they do not. They do, and I can give evidence in Westminster that shows that they do.

The Minister did not address the point about licence fees being self-financing at all. I was absolutely clear and I gave the Minister statistics showing that they are not. The Government promised that it would be a self-financing regime. He did not address the point about the code of practice for irresponsible drinks promotions. We have not heard anything about that, except that we know it is coming. We do not know who has been consulted or when it will come in. The Minister went on to talk about licences and the police. He said that applications had not been passed or completed. It is not a question of that. In Westminster, 350 licensed premises have not even applied. It is not an issue of finishing those applications; applications have not been made at all. People will be trading illegally because of the Government's policy. It is clear that that is replicated throughout the country. Those are not my statistics: they are statistics from the industry. There might be up to 20,000 people trading illegally when that policy comes in because they have not even applied. Some have, but the majority of them have not.

The Minister also failed to address 24-hour drinking. We already know that more than 600 premises have been granted licences, which was never intended by the Government's policy. We are not debating the Bill. We are debating the guidance and policy of the Government following the introduction of the Bill. That is what we want the Government to review. That is what is wrong. The Minister should have said that the guidance would be reviewed. If the order is delayed, it is not a question of chaos. The chaos will be when the order goes through. If the order is delayed, all those people with existing licences will operate under existing terms, which will give local authorities much more time to get it right.

I am very disappointed with the Minister's answer, which leaves me no alternative but to ask the opinion of the House.

8.21 pm

On Question, Whether the said Motion shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 130; Not-Contents, 97.

Division No. 3


Addington, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L. [Teller]
Barker, B.
Blaker, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Courtown, E.
Craigavon, V.
De Mauley, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dundee, E.
Eccles, V.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goodlad, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hogg, B.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.


Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President of the Council.]
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bilston, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Clark of Calton, B.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Corston, B.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
McDonagh, B.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prosser, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Stratford, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.

14 Nov 2005 : Column 916

Children and Adoption Bill [HL]

8.32 pm

Consideration of amendments on Report resumed.

Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 25:

Next Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page