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Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. However, I have to say that the fact that he might consider the introduction of changes along with other amendments at some time in the future is similar to a kick in a rugby match that goes out of sight over the stands. It does not deal with the problem that the police confront day after day. If, in bringing forward the Act, there was real determination in the department to actually do something about it, I would be more impressed. I should like to test the opinion of the House.
 
22 Nov 2005 : Column 1515
 

3.49 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 4) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 71; Not-Contents, 134

Division No. 2

CONTENTS
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Chorley, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Denham, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Fearn, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Garden, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Greaves, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Laird, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Palmer, L.
Patel, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Quinton, L.
Ramsbotham, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B. [Teller]
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stern, B.
Taverne, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tonge, B.
Tordoff, L.
Tyler, L.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wolfson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Adonis, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President of the Council.]
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Blackstone, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Calton, B.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Gregson, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Nicol, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Warner, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Worcester, Bp.


Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

 
22 Nov 2005 : Column 1516
 

4 pm

Baroness Hanham moved Amendment No. 4A:

After Clause 9, insert the following new clause—

"PEDICABS
(1) The appropriate national authority may make regulations providing for—
(a) the application of relevant enactments to pedicabs; and
(b) the enforcement of relevant enactments in relation to pedicabs.
(2) The regulations may, in particular, make provision—
(a) identifying the person against whom enforcement action may be taken if there is a contravention of a relevant enactment;
(b) for the registration of pedicabs by specified authorities and the provision and display of registration plates on pedicabs;
(c) for the payment of fees for registration;
(d) for the making of registers available for inspection and sale;
(e) for offences relating to registration;
(f) for transitional arrangements.
(3) The Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 (c. xxiv) is amended as follows.
 
22 Nov 2005 : Column 1517
 

(4) In section 15(11) (parking on footways, grass verges, etc.), in the definition of "vehicles", after "means" insert "a pedicab (within the meaning given by section (Pedicabs) of the Road Safety Act 2005),".
(5) The London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 (c. iii) is amended as follows.
(6) In section 4(5) (penalty charges for road traffic contraventions), for the words "motor vehicle" there is substituted "vehicle".
(7) In section 4(16), the definition of "motor vehicle" is omitted and the following definition is inserted at the end—
""vehicle" means a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on roads and a pedicab within the meaning given by section (Pedicabs) of the Road Safety Act 2005.".
(8) In this section—
"the appropriate national authority" means—
(a) in relation to England, the Secretary of State;
(b) in relation to Wales, the National Assembly for Wales;
"pedicab" means a cycle constructed or adapted—
(a) to seat one or more passengers; and
(b) for the purpose of being made available with a driver for hire for the purpose of carrying passengers;
"relevant enactment" means—
(a) section 15 (parking on footways, grass verges, etc.) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 (c. xxiv);
(b) Part II of the Road Traffic Act 1991 (c. 40) (traffic in London);
(c) Part II of and Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities Act 1996 (c. ix) (bus lanes);
(d) regulations made under section 144 of the Transport Act 2000 (c. 38) (civil penalties for bus lane contraventions);
(e) Part 2 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 (road traffic and highways);
(f) regulations under section 72 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 (c. 18) (civil penalties for road traffic contraventions);
(g) any other enactment relating to road traffic regulation, specified in regulations made by the appropriate national authority, which provides for the service of penalty charge notices or notices to owner on the owner of a vehicle;
"specified authority" means—
(a) in Greater London, Transport for London;
(b) elsewhere in England and Wales, a traffic authority."

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, before speaking to the amendment, I remind the House that, first, I am a member of a local authority and, secondly, I am a magistrate who deals with road traffic offences.

I have been briefed by Westminster City Council on this amendment and it is also supported by Transport for London. It brings us back to a rather unusual mode of travel, of which there have been a couple in this Bill—that of pedicabs. I am sure that many noble Lords have seen them—they are cycle rickshaws. As a mode of transport, they are becoming increasingly popular, particularly with tourists, and I am told that around 200 now operate in the West End each day. Although they provide a useful and exciting service for tourists, they are probably causing an increasing number of problems.

As more and more pedicabs appear on the street, they tend to congregate at particular locations, such as Covent Garden tube station and outside theatres, and
 
22 Nov 2005 : Column 1518
 
they are beginning to cause problems of obstruction. Apart from that, the specific problems that they cause arise from the fact that they park on footways and partly on the carriageway, thus obstructing both pedestrians and general traffic; they park on pedestrianised areas, causing obstructions in areas around theatres, including dangerous obstructions around fire escapes; and buses have been forced out of bus lanes into general traffic, which is clearly a safety hazard—though the briefing does not say to whom. There have been examples of pedicabs blocking the routes of ambulances.

Despite that, there are currently no means by which a local authority or other highway and traffic authority, including Transport for London, can control pedicabs. They are not registered, and not licensed with anyone in London. There is no legal means by which the city council can register or licence them itself. Currently, they are effectively treated as pedal cycles, which means that they do not have an easily identifiable registration number which could be used to issue a penalty charge notice. In short, the problems which the city council faces, and other councils are likely to face in the future, are almost incapable of being dealt with.

The London Local Authorities and Transport for London Bill included proposals for bringing pedicabs under existing traffic legislation until the proposals were rejected by the Opposed Private Bill Committee. The proposals under that Bill would have meant that pedicab operators needed to have every pedicab registered with Transport for London, in much the same way as other vehicles are licensed with the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. They would also have to carry registration plates. Those, in turn, would have allowed enforcement action to be taken against them when they were contravening parking or other moving traffic regulations.

The proposed content of the Bill covered only registration, not licensing—as indeed does this amendment. It would not, therefore, have introduced any controls on the operators or drivers, the state of the vehicles themselves, or have required insurance to be carried. It is hoped that full licensing will eventually be achieved or required if they continue to be the attraction they are currently.

Westminster City Council's evidence shows that there are very good reasons why the issue of registration needs to be dealt with as swiftly as possible. This should not have to wait for the implementation of a future licensing regime. It is not easy to understand why the Opposed Bill Committee was not convinced of the need for registration, but it was not. The problems would appear to have been opposition from the petitioners and the Government, all of whom argued for regulation by another route, and the prospect of regulation by such a route being on the horizon. But it is not clear what that regulation route is, and any future Transport for London Bill could not introduce the powers to issue penalty charge notices for traffic conventions because a Transport for
 
22 Nov 2005 : Column 1519
 
London Bill cannot address issues that are of concern to both Transport for London and to the London local authorities.

Furthermore, if legislation is required for licensing, this cannot be achieved through a London Local Authorities and Transport for London Bill, because licensing is only a concern for Transport for London. So whatever way you look at it, it does not look as though it is going to be possible. That is why registration is needed so desperately. London local authorities and Transport for London cannot issue penalty charge notices for parking and moving traffic offences to pedicabs without it.

Pedicabs pose potentially serious road safety problems in and around the West End. I also remind noble Lords that people are carried in these pedicabs. They therefore need to be safe before people clamber into them. They are also, I understand, becoming increasing costly, although of course registration would not deal with that. I beg to move.

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