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Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, I well understand the anxiety of the noble Lord, Lord Soley, to restrict the debate as far as possible. He brought out his referee's whistle to blow it at other people. I hope that he will accept that there is widespread anxiety in the House about the lack of information. If the Government had given some accurate information about the likely costs, the debate might have ranged more narrowly. I thought that every word spoken by my noble friend, whom I congratulate, was perfectly justified, as was all that was said by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips.
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I have a limited number of points. First, I was moved by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Wright, and his obviously painful memory of having been chastised by the noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, in the past. I shall add nothing to that, save the rather vain hope—most hopes at my age are rather vain—of longing for the day when his opposite number at present in the Home Office will suffer an equally severe and painful flagellation, which will be attended by the same awful memories that he shared with us today.
There are widely different estimates. The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, is quite right to say that it is no good talking about estimates and throwing them at the Comptroller and Auditor General. We need costs. If we have no reliable figures we must make do with the bone we have.
The noble Baroness performs with skill, calm and grace. What a pity that her colleagues, who framed these policies, do nothing to deserve the performance that she puts up on the Front Bench. I do not wish to embarrass her with too many congratulations, but she is an example to her colleagues and I wish only that she had more success in persuading them to see sense. Alas, she does not.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Soley, will not be too vexed if I repeat this, but we are dealing with a very comprehensive system of surveillance. Many of us do not like it, and the idea that the Government should get a blank cheque from us to pay for it is odious. In passing, I also echo a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, about freedom of information. I hardly know what to say about it. So far as I understand it, in modern parlance freedom of information means that the Government shall have access to all the information that they require, but on the other hand, when it does not suit them and when it is administratively inconvenient or impossible to give the information, it is not a matter that is going to bother the present Administration at all.
I worry about the Bill. It is a thoroughly bad measure. The Government should have shown the necessary respect for the parliamentary institution, been aware that this information would be most earnestly required and that their "we can't do better than we have" attitude was not good enough. I shall have no qualms about supporting this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, refers to playing party politics, but it is part of the government party against the rest.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, it might be useful if we return to the substance of the amendments. I draw your Lordships' attention to Amendment No. 123, which is grouped with this amendment and will, I imagine, be consequential if Amendment No. 1 is passed.
Amendment No. 123 sets out the basis for what is known as a "cost estimate",
We learn from subsection 4(b) in the amendment that the cost estimate shall include,
"the costs that are estimated to be incurred during a period of 10 years after the date to which the estimate is prepared or such longer future period as shall be determined by the Secretary of State".
From subsection 3(b) we learn that the cost estimate shall include,
I do not know about your Lordships' cash position, but if I were asked to put an estimate 10 years out of what my cash position might be, I would have various serious doubts about it, as would any business in the land.
The amendment goes on to state:
"The cost estimate shall be analysed into each of the financial years ending 31st March covered by the cost estimate".
Therefore, the cash expenditure that the cost estimate will include will be analysed into each financial year for 10 years out. Furthermore,
which are part of this cost estimate—
We are entitled to look at legislation in detail in this House. We are also entitled to look at amendments in detail, and this particular amendment needs some redrafting. Although I am sympathetic in principle to the idea that the Government should be more honest and open with what the costs might be, this amendment could not possibly be accepted by the House.
Lord Steinberg: My Lords, I share in the comments made by my noble friend Lord Peyton in congratulating the Minister on the steadfast way in which she has conducted matters. However, like my noble friend, I regret that I have a number of questions which, so far, are unanswered.
I am opposed to the whole concept of ID cards, since it is rather like Big Brother watching you. It is always good that a government keep track of their citizens, and every law-abiding person is happy to sign. I am worried about the crooks, the underground thieves and those people who do not pay tax, for how will identity cards help to bring them into the net? I am sure that every Member of this House will sign up to an identity card process, if the time comes. However, we on these Benches—and, it appears, other sections of the House—are extremely worried about what the costs might be.
We all know that the Government seem to favour a firm of accountants to the London School of Economics. I hold no brief for either, except to say that the London School of Economics has a somewhat similar nature to the top end of chartered accountants, such as PricewaterhouseCoopers or Peat Marwick, now KPMG, and so on. I heard only today that 12 professors were involved in putting these estimates
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together. I would not necessarily hold out that the estimates—and they are only estimates—will be any different coming from one organisation or another.
Can it possibly be fair, therefore, to be buying a product for a figure—in this case, for what we must call the nebulous figure of £584 million—if you are not going to be told what you will get from it, or how much it will really cost? Is it really morally correct that someone can sell you something for that amount of money if you are not entitled to the details? For example, if I were buying a business and were told that the cost was £584 million, I would say, "Fine—can I have details? Can I look at the balance sheet and the profit and loss account?". In this case, we are getting no such details.
My noble friend Lady Noakes referred to competitive issues, as indeed did others including the noble Lord, Lord Barnett. The more competition that there is, the better to get a cheaper price rather than a secretive, organised one arranged separately by government. I do not know how many companies the Government are in touch with about this—although the Minister would—but I am very much of the opinion that the more are involved in competing for what would be an extremely large contract, the better. That would mean we will get it for a cheaper price. I am no great mathematician but I have worked out that, by taking £584 million forward for the 10-year period that we are talking about and allowing for 2 per cent inflation per annum, after five years it would become £644 million and after 10 years £711 million. We all agree that these figures are nebulous and uncertain, but they show that building in even only a 2 per cent inflation figure escalates the cost dramatically.
What will be the capital cost? We really do not know. We have heard mention of from £10 billion to £19 billion, and I believe the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, mentioned a figure today of possibly £24 billion. These are colossal figures. They would contribute towards the budgets for education and the health service to a remarkable degree.
Let me go a little further and talk about what the identity card will cost if it is to be foisted on the public. Will it cost £30, £60, £90, £100, £200 or £300? Even a sum of £500 was mentioned in the press at the weekend. I do not think the public would go for that and the whole thing would be a disaster. The noble Lord, Lord Wright, mentioned that when you are introducing new technology, new equipment and so on, it always has tweaks and can fall down. I always believe that whatever costs are built in, they will end up higher. We are all entitled to know the answers to these questions. I emphasise what my noble friend Lady Noakes said in her opening remarks: we need more information.
What about the link between passports and ID cards? If the Government are going to lump the two together, will this result in a different figure and be quantified in a different way? The Government have said that ID cards are to help with security, but will they help to deal with people who are involved in shadow areas—for instance, those who do not pay
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their taxes, drug dealers, asylum seekers who are not on the register and so on? I think not. The costs of the scheme are so terribly uncertain that we on this side of the House cannot possibly approve it without much more information and much more definite figures.
4.15 pm
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