| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I want to ask the noble Baroness for clarification of something that she said a moment ago—that the £584 million would include the costs of maintaining and updating the register, and presumably of dealing with inquiries. That is not what the Explanatory Notes say; they say that:
As for overall running costs, they are to be covered by a "combination of charges"—charges on the public—
and so on. Does the £584 million cover the cost of maintaining and updating the register with every change of address and so on that we have already inquired about?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord has had an opportunity to look at our regulatory impact assessment and the basis of what is covered by the £584 million. I have made it absolutely clear what is incorporated in that money. Part of it is in relation to the register and putting that on board.
We have said that the current running costs are £397 million. The estimated change will involve the £584 million. I do not detract from anything that has been said or contained in that full regulatory impact assessment.
Lord Barnett: My Lords, the noble Baroness is quoting me in support of the fact that the amendment is not a satisfactory one and she is quite right. That is what I said. On the other hand, much of the information asked for in the amendment the Government can readily supply, but above all it will give the other place an opportunity to think again. If she is not willing to accept that, would she be willing to accept the recommendation that a Select Committee should look into costs? Without that, how will we know whether the benefits outweigh the costs?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, of course, we already have the benefit of the Public Accounts Committee; we have all the ways in which the Government are currently brought to account on costs. We do not see anything that entitles this piece of legislation to be taken outside that which would normally apply. Therefore, we believe that the currently available scrutiny will suffice in these circumstances.
We believe that many of the net benefits, as I have indicated, are included in the gateway review. Noble Lords have seen the basis of that. The identity cards
16 Jan 2006 : Column 459
programme is subject to that regular review under the Office of Government Commerce gateway review process. The review teams have full access to the business case for the identity cards programme. The noble Earl, Lord Northesk, asks me to say more about that. I can announce that, just last week, a further gateway review of the identity cards programme was completed and I am pleased to say that the review team concluded that the programme is in a fit state to proceed. The review team had full access to the business case, both for the setting up and for issuing identity cards and for anticipated uses of the scheme in both public and private sectors. Noble Lords will be familiar with the fact that the reason that the gateway process was adopted was to ensure that the Government better understood the risks involved and were better able to manage the process so that they did not fall into the error that used to happen when that scrutiny and that rigour was not in place. Therefore, we feel that this is a robust way of dealing with it.
The Earl of Northesk: My Lords, perhaps the noble Baroness can satisfy my curiosity. At which traffic light, during the various stages, has the ID card been subject to review, and which traffic light has it been given for each of its stages, and which current stage has it just passed?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I think it has gone through its first two stages—that is, nought and one—and it has been given a clear bill of health to continue to the next stage. So the gateway review process is well on its way and is within the ambit of where it should be. The noble Earl will know that it is not usual for the gateway process details to be expanded upon or disclosed.
I believe that the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, complemented us on employing KPMG, or it might have been the noble Lord, Lord Peyton—I think he said, "At least we have done that". That process has been very important. KPMG carried out an independent review in November 2005 of the cost methodology and cost assumptions in the outline business case for the identity cards programme. That report recognised the high quality of the outline business case and confirmed that the majority of cost assumptions were based on appropriate benchmarks and analysis from the public sector and suppliers.
The 15-page extract from the KPMG report has been placed in the Library of the House and includes all the report's recommendations on which we are now taking action. So there is an easy answer to those who want more detail of our costings. The reason, as I have made clear before, is to protect the taxpayer and the public who will benefit from the identity cards scheme. We simply must not provide information that could undermine obtaining the best value for money when we go out to open tender for the procurement of the different elements of the identity cards scheme.
I know that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, suggested that I was perhaps having what would colloquially be called "a bad hair day" when we last
16 Jan 2006 : Column 460
debated this, but I can assure him that that was not the case. I know that the noble Lord would not wish me to trespass on the normal procurement rules, which of course his suggestion may well do. The identity card programme is conducting a market-sounding exercise in co-operation with Intellect. It has attracted widespread interest and positive feedback. It would be against the EU regulations and OGC rules to issue requirements to industry in advance of a notice to be published in the Official Journal of the European Union. This, as we have made clear, cannot occur before Royal Assent is granted. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, is not asking the Government to break any official procurement procedures; that would be far from his mind. We have done everything that we are able.
The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, also mentioned the Foreign Office. I assure noble Lords that what I said still stands: it is not intended that the Foreign Office should issue ID cards. ID cards will not be issued abroad. They are for UK residents and UK residents only. Passports will continue to be issued abroad. The biometric passport is coming. All parties agree on that. This is a cost that will be incurred even if not one single ID card is issued. The Foreign Office will remain responsible for issuing those biometric passports abroad, in accordance with the ordinary rules.
I therefore hope that I have demonstrated to the noble Lord that he is quite wrong when he says that the Home Office does not have faintest idea of the cost, or that it does not hold water. We do, and I respectfully suggest that we have offered a good answer as to why our figures are robust.
There has been quite a lot of debate today about the LSE report. It is correct that the LSE's original assessment did not concur with our own. In its report the LSE—which claims to be without political bias—accuses the Government of secrecy. Throughout the development of the identity cards programme, Home Office officials have met a wide range of interested parties, including those representatives from the LSE. In addition to a very wide range of policy papers, research and other documents have been published. The policy on ID cards has been one of the most widely debated in recent years. We believe that it continues to command wide public support, despite the best efforts of critics to create what many see as a misleading, inaccurate and poorly researched approach.
PA Consulting Group has confirmed that no approach was made to it from the LSE authors' team. In any case, I suppose the LSE would know that such a meeting would put PA Consulting in breach of its client confidentiality. We have provided on our website an in-depth critique of the LSE's report. It is available, in detail, for those who wish to see the basis upon which we disagree with it.
Commercial confidentiality has been rather put to one side, as if it were not something of real import. I assure the House that it is. It is claimed that the commercial sensitivity of the detailed costs of the scheme holds no water and is not a matter of
16 Jan 2006 : Column 461
importance. This statement contradicts the behaviour of the market itself. The market-sounding process created by Intellect—the UK trade association for the high-tech industry—was established in recognition of the fact that both potential suppliers and the Government needed to keep elements of their planning, including costs, confidential. The high level of the engagement of suppliers in the identity cards programme market-sounding exercises run by Intellect appear to underline the industry's support for that concept. This statement also overlooks that the Government have already made it clear that the scheme will be self-financing. At today's prices, the unit cost for a joint passport and identity card is £93, with a fee for a stand-alone ID card of £30. We have already set the anticipated parameters that we would wish to see, in a way that is helpful and non-destructive.
5.15 pm
I assure my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours that the Government have sought and included a great deal of independent expertise—all the experts to which my noble friend Lady Henig referred—and the independent assurance panel, the review project overall, independent experts in biometrics and many, many more. That is on top of the Government's scrutiny on commerce.
We have had a full business case and a lot of detailed information. The Bill is enabling legislation to allow a system of ID cards to be introduced. The Bill will not be the final word. The Government will need to be reassured at every stage that there is sound financial viability for the scheme. Of course, expenditure on the identity cards programme is subject to the normal audit procedures of departmental expenditure through the National Audit Office and the Home Office agency to be established to issue identity cards and to incorporate the existing UK Passport Service, which will publish a corporate and business plan as well as annual accounts.
On the detail of the amendments, I do not accept that there should be such an unprecedented review of the estimated costs of the identity card scheme covering a period of 10 years and the consequential costs falling to other departments before the Bill comes into force. I simply do not think that that is necessary. The level of scrutiny that has already been—and will continue to be—given to the project by my colleagues in Her Majesty's Treasury should not be forgotten. Such a major project inevitably benefits from a close level of Treasury scrutiny. So before any money can be spent, estimates have to be prepared and agreed with the Treasury. They must be approved by Parliament by being voted through the supply estimates process in the House of Commons either in the main or the supplementary estimates.
I end by reminding the House that this is not the first time that an identity card scheme has been considered. In 1996, the then Conservative government proposed the introduction of identity cards and responded to a report from the Home Office committee in the other
16 Jan 2006 : Column 462
place on whether there needed to be a detailed analysis of the net public expenditure effect of the proposed scheme. The answer given by the then government, published as part of Command Paper 3362 in August 1996, stated:
"We see no need to initiate any consultation on the expenditure involved as provision will be sought in estimates to be approved by Parliament".
That is exactly what we intend to do. Just as a previous government were prepared to rest on the established procedures for government expenditure, so should we. This matter can be dealt with in its proper place by the other place and not by this House. On that basis, I very much hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, will not press her Amendments Nos. 1, 121, 122 and 123, flawed as they clearly are.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |