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Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for her comprehensive reply to the debate, which has been going on for more than two hours. I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. A majority of noble Lords have supported the amendment and I am grateful for that. A number of noble Lords raised points and I hope that all noble Lords will forgive me if I do not reiterate and respond to the detailed points which were made as I am conscious of the time that we have already spent on this small group of amendments.

The amendment is about transparency and openness in government. I do not believe that the Government have demonstrated those qualities in connection with the Bill. We have challenged them to provide information on start-up costs, capital costs, transaction volumes and many other details, but answers came there none. The Minister's story about this simply requiring marginal add-ons to the UK Passport Service is very difficult to swallow without details. There is still a major disparity between the Home Office figures and those produced by the London School of Economics. I remind noble Lords that the LSE's figures at the top end are more than three times those produced by the Government.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, the noble Baroness and many other noble Lords have referred to this report as "of the London School of Economics". Will she make it clear that it is not a report of that institution, but is produced by researchers who work in it? That is a substantial difference.

Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I am happy to respond to that point. The report is by a research team operating within the London School of Economics. The noble Lord can see from the report the large number of people from the London School of Economics who are working on it. That is quite normal for research projects. As I said in my opening remarks—when I do not believe the noble Lord was in his place—the director of the London School of Economics has given his support to previous reports and to the report that was issued at the weekend. He stands by its description as coming from the London School of Economics.
 
16 Jan 2006 : Column 463
 

We also asked for costs from other departments but drew a blank. We asked for details in a number of Written Questions but the Answers that we received largely indicated that many government departments, including the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, were not fully signed up to involvement in this scheme. That raises the big issue of whether other departments will engage with the scheme or whether it will remain a stand-alone Home Office scheme. There are unanswered questions there. We asked for information about the 44,000 private sector organisations which according to the market-sounding document are supposed to be engaging with the system. We asked how that will work and who will pay for it and bear the costs. There was silence.

Parliament deserves better. We must give the other place an opportunity to approve the costs and the benefits and to decide about affordability. The amendment is about the costs and benefits of the scheme and about parliamentary scrutiny. I have made it clear that the scrutiny to which I am referring is the scrutiny of the other place. The amendment is not about the principle of the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, talked about a Joint Committee and that may well have been a good way for the Bill to have proceeded at an earlier stage, but the Government declined the opportunity to do that. This issue is so important that I wish to seek the opinion of the House.

5.22 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 237; Not-Contents, 156.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Cameron of Lochbroom, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chidgey, L.
Chorley, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller.]
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
D'Souza, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dearing, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Fellowes, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Fritchie, B.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glasgow, E.
Goodhart, L.
Goodlad, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Ramsbotham, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller.]
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Steinberg, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tyler, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Waverley, V.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.

NOT-CONTENTS
Adonis, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Calton, B.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Corston, B.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller.]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Grabiner, L.
Greengross, B.
Gregson, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller.]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kinnock, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Moser, L.
Murphy, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Warner, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.


Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

 
16 Jan 2006 : Column 466
 

5.38 pm

[Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 not moved.]

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