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Lord Selsdon: My Lords, it was a fairly simple question. I should like to have an identity card, but will all the data on me, on the central register, be on my identity card—yes or no?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: No, my Lords, your identity card will be able to identify you, and those who wish to verify your identity will be able to do so by checking against the register.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, we are talking at this stage about a national identity register that is voluntary. Under those circumstances, the claims that the Minister is making for the register in respect of more efficient public services really cannot add up, can they? They apply properly only if you have a compulsory register.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I do not intend to get up again. I should not be getting up and down, as this is Report. But I can say to the noble Lord that the whole scheme is predicated on the basis that it will become compulsory in the long term. For the
16 Jan 2006 : Column 480
reasons I have given, these issues are things that we believe will be extremely helpful, and we will derive benefit from them. All the data will not be on the card; there is a limited amount, set out in affirmative regulations, to which we shall come later.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part. I hear exactly what the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, says: the Government's scheme would not be his best choice, as he would go for a federated scheme which would find a different way of doing things. But we are where we are, and what I am trying to do is, exactly as he perceives, to create a more transparent system, which, if the Bill goes through unaltered, will work slightly better than the one we have now.
The Minister says that I should still my beating heart and that I am not to worry because we are already in a surveillance society, with CCTV cameras and so on; she says, "Let's just put it all together and make it easy for the Government to have complete control and you don't need to worry any more". The trouble is that I do worry. What the Government propose is more than a straightforward register; it is the audit trail that concerns me. The Minister says that nothing would be put on the audit trail that is not already there; it is simply disseminated in various places.
Last week, I attended a clinic in Woking, which is one of those community hospitals—and at my great age, sadly, I did not have to make use of the family planning clinic, which was in the room next to me. But I was in conversation with young people in their late teens, who were there without their parents' knowledge and were concerned that they had a sexually transmitted disease. They said that that particular clinic gave them the confidence and freedom to be able to seek advice. Perhaps they would get advice and be treated; it may well be that they would be told that they did not have anything to worry about. But they had gone there because there was no tracking of them. I considered that—and, to me, it is one of the crucial issues. One ought to be able to give people the opportunity to retain their anonymity and privacy when it is right to do so. That is why we need to narrow the definition here; as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, says, we need to keep the scope of the register within reasonable bounds. My amendment is an attempt to do that. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
6.36 pm
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 6) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 194; Not-Contents, 141.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chidgey, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller.]
Courtown, E.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glasgow, E.
Goodhart, L.
Goodlad, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller.]
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mawhinney, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saatchi, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tyler, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.
Adonis, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Cameron of Lochbroom, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Calton, B.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Corston, B.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller.]
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Grantchester, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller.]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kinnock, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Moonie, L.
Moran, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prosser, B.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Warner, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
16 Jan 2006 : Column 483
6.49 pm
Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 7:
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