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Baroness Amos: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Cope, was not suggesting that Speakers' apartments should be used for some other—perhaps "Big Brother"—purposes. I said in my opening address that the House takes an evolutionary approach to change. Having listened to the debate this afternoon, I think that the House is now ready to make a decision. I do not intend to respond to all the points made in the debate, so I shall be very brief.

It remains my very strong view that this House needs a strong independent voice, and I think a Lord Speaker will deliver that. Several Members of the House who spoke this afternoon addressed the question of whether there should be one role or two. I think that a convincing case has been made for two roles. The
31 Jan 2006 : Column 178
noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, gave us very clear evidence on the basis of his experience. Practically, there is too much work to do. There are also some duties undertaken by the Lord Chairman, which, in principle, the Lord Speaker should not do.

Noble Lords have also spoken with great feeling about the need for a wider representational role, particularly a public education role within Britain. The House has also reiterated its view about the importance of self-regulation. The committee's report delivers, in the main, what the House would wish to see, and I hope that the House will agree to it.

Lord Geddes: My Lords, it is somewhat difficult to remember that, technically, we are now back at Amendment No. 2. I hope your Lordships will agree that I was sufficiently brief in moving my amendment; I just want to say that I am not convinced that there is, as outlined in the excellent report from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and his committee, actually a job for a Speaker. That is a personal opinion, despite remarks that have been made. I totally concur that the present role of the Chairman of Committees is already onerous and that support would be needed if it were to be a joint role. I am, however, persuaded by many remarks made around the House, particularly those of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, that the details of assistance could be worked out at a later date. In that respect, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment No. 2, as an amendment to Amendment No. 1, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I have been rather underwhelmed by the tremendous amount of support I have had, and I have a horrible feeling that in the Division Lobbies there would be a substantial majority in favour of the original Motion. I have also been immensely impressed by the debate that we have had, and particularly by those who have explained just what an important outside role this new Speaker would have. This, of course, was the nub of my argument. I was very much struck by the comments of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern. In light of that, and echoing what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, said about this being born out of consensus rather than division, repeating something I had said earlier, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment No. 1, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Barnett rose to move, as an amendment to the motion standing in the name of the Lord President, in line 3, after "approved" to insert "except that the title of the office should be "Lord Presiding Officer"".

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have listened to the whole of this debate with very great interest and pleasure, although I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Cope, that I had no intention of moving a new Barnett formula; as he will well know, I do not like the existing one. I do not resile from all that I said initially; I believe that there is a serious danger, if we have the title of Lord Speaker, to the very self-regulation we all care about. I therefore beg to move.
31 Jan 2006 : Column 179

Moved, as an amendment to the motion standing in the name of the Lord President, in line 3, after "approved" to insert "except that the title of the office should be "Lord Presiding Officer"".—(Lord Barnett.)

The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Hooper): My Lords, the Question is that this amendment be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say, "Content". To the contrary, "Not-Content".

Noble Lords: Not Content.

The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, the Not-Contents have it. We now move on to Amendment No. 4. I call the noble Lord, Lord Barnett.

Lord Barnett: My Lords, it is Amendment No. 3. I have moved it.

Baroness Amos: My Lords, if I might assist the House, I think the Not-Contents had it but the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, called "Content", which means that we need to clear the Bar.

6.10 pm

The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, forgive me; my hearing must be deficient. I have called Amendment No. 3; the House has expressed a difference of opinion and I therefore ask your Lordships to clear the Bar.

Division called.

6.13 pm

The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, the Question is that Amendment No. 3 be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say, "Content". To the contrary, "Not-Content".

Noble Lords: Not content.

The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, the Not-Contents have it.

On Question, amendment negatived.

Lord Barnett had given notice of his intention to move, as an amendment to the Motion standing in the name of the Lord President, in line 3, after "approved" to insert "except that in carrying out the duties recommended in paragraph 17 the Lord on the Woolsack should act as guardian of the Companion".

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I gather that the noble Lord, Lord Elton, had in mind to move a manuscript amendment to include the word "a" in this amendment, which I think would make it more amenable to your Lordships—but where is he? He had it in mind, so he informed me, to move an amendment to my amendment to turn it into "a" Companion, not "the" Companion

A noble Lord: "A guardian of the Companion".

Lord Barnett: My Lords, "a guardian of the Companion". I thought that would be more amenable
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to the House, as did the noble Lord, Lord Elton. But I cannot see him—he is not here to move his amendment—so I cannot move my amendment.

[Amendment No. 4 not moved.]

Baroness Gould of Potternewton rose to move, as an amendment to the motion standing in the name of the Lord President, in line 3, after "approved" to insert "except that the Leader's role at Question Time should be transferred to the Lord Speaker".

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I thank those noble Lords who have spoken in favour of my amendment. I stress again—and I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt—that we are talking about the person on the Woolsack actually going round the House, which is supposed to be the procedure of the House as it currently is. In the tradition of the House, the Select Committee made it absolutely clear that it was a matter for the House to decide. I therefore wish to test the opinion of the House. I beg to move.

Moved, as an amendment to the Motion standing in the name of the Lord President, in line 3, after "approved" to insert "except that the Leader's role at Question Time should be transferred to the Lord Speaker".—(Baroness Gould of Potternewton.)

6.18 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 5) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 132; Not-Contents, 176.

Division No. 1


Acton, L.
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Blackstone, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Carter of Coles, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L. [Teller]
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kinnock, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Leitch, L.
Lockwood, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Nicol, B.
Palmer, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quinton, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Soley, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turnbull, L.
Tyler, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Arran, E.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chidgey, L.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Fowler, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodlad, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jopling, L.
Judd, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lindsay, E.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Montrose, D.
Moonie, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Ramsbotham, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sandwich, E.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L. [Teller]
Turner of Camden, B.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

31 Jan 2006 : Column 182

On Question, Motion agreed to.

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