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Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for his support. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, responded by saying that the Government like the idea of having more of a tribunal system and that they want something robust which has checks and balances. But then he accused me of trying to introduce a bureaucracy, when it appeared that the more he went into his explanation, the more his system became more bureaucratic than mine. There is a fundamental disagreement between us on what is needed on the face of the Bill to ensure a fair way in which the licensed trade may make its appeals against what could be a significant payment by it on a monthly basis. I would never claim that the proposals put forward in my clauses are perfect. But they do represent my view that it is only fair that there should be an independent tribunal, not a bureaucracy, which would give fairness and equity to the licensed trade. It is on that basis that I will ask the opinion of the Committee.
9.10 pm
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 71) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 41; Not-Contents, 44.
Addington, L. [Teller]
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Chidgey, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Geddes, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Henley, L.
Hooper, B.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maddock, B.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Newby, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Ullswater, V.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Windlesham, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bilston, L.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davidson of Glen Clova, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hart of Chilton, L.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Pendry, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Simon, V.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
26 Apr 2006 : Column 241
9.18 pm
Viscount Bridgeman moved Amendment No. 72:
"( ) Regulations made under subsection (8) shall include provision for appeals against decisions determining such questions as set out in subsection (8)(b)."
The noble Viscount said: In moving Amendment No. 72, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 73. The amendments follow on from the previous amendments, to which my noble friend Lady Anelay has spoken. The purpose of this group of amendments is to try to get some idea of when draft regulations will be published relating to the charges that will be imposed on licence holders in alcohol disorder zones.
It was as long ago as last October that the Government were asked in another place when these draft regulations might be available, and six months later we still have not had a chance to examine them. Bearing in mind the amount of detail that is being left to regulations, can the Minister give the Committee an assurance that draft regulations will be available to be scrutinised before Report?
It has been left to regulations to specify the rate of charges, exemptions and discounts, payments and enforcement and the appeals process. We have already discussed the issue of regulations that specify what the money raised by the scheme can and cannot be used for. These details are absolutely critical if we are to get a clear picture of what the effect of an alcohol disorder zone designation will have—both on businesses and on alcohol-related disorder itself. Before conferring such sweeping powers on local authorities, does the Minister agree that this House needs greater time for scrutiny of the details of such schemes? I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: The amendments are devised—and I believe that the noble Viscount explained it this way—to get on the record some idea of when draft regulations will be published. All I can say at this stage is that the draft regulations will be laid before Parliament as soon as possible after the Act comes into force and that alcohol disorder zones cannot properly function without that secondary legislation. I can also make it clear that we are committed to dealing with the regulations by affirmative resolution. I do not believe that there is any need to include a provision to this effect in the Bill.
Amendment No. 73 would compel the Secretary of State to publish regulations within one month of the Act coming into force. I am sure that the noble
26 Apr 2006 : Column 242
Viscount will tell me otherwise, but it is a while since I can recall a piece of legislation making such a grand stipulation. It would be wrong to try to tie us down to such a tight timetable. I understand the noble Viscount's frustration, which has been expressed on a number of occasions during today's deliberations. I am reluctant to say this tonight, but I will obviously confer further with my colleagues and officials to see what more we can say at a later stage in the Bill about the timetable for bringing forth regulations. I certainly understand the sense of frustration that is apparent.
With that being the only assurance I can offer this evening, I hope that the noble Viscount will feel able to withdraw his amendment. I will undertake to ask whether we can provide a slightly firmer sense of how we intend to proceed with the regulatory regime that comes forward in secondary legislation. I understand the desire for there to be a timetable and for transparency—it is a commitment that we want to be able to give. I cannot say more than that this evening but I hope that the noble Viscount will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Bridgeman: I am most grateful to the Minister, who has obviously been as helpful as he can in the circumstances. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 13 [Designation of alcohol disorder zones]:
Viscount Bridgeman moved Amendment No. 74:
The noble Viscount said: Clause 13 sets out the steps the local authority must take before designation of a locality takes place. The test for designation in subsection (1) is a relatively low one. The local authority could make such a designation if satisfied that there has been alcohol-related nuisance, annoyance or disorder. Given the importance of such a decision to designate, it would be far more appropriate if a set of objective conditions had to be met before a decision of this nature was made. That would provide more reassurance to those businesses likely to be affected by any such designations. This kind of designation should occur only when criteria have been fully, clearly and demonstrably met, and not at the whim of a local authority. I beg to move.
Lord Borrie: The noble Viscount is a little unfair in using the word "whim". I cannot imagine a local authority designating an alcohol disorder zone unless it is pretty sure that these conditions are met. I generally agree with the noble Viscount that objective tests are better than subjective ones. But the likelihood of repetition of the nuisance, annoyance or disorder, as set out in subsection (1)(c), must be based on the sensible appreciation of the situation by somebody—
26 Apr 2006 : Column 243
in this case, the local authority. It cannot be objectively satisfied. In this particular instance, I think that the amendment should not be carried.
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