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Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: My Lords, Professor John Bourne, who is in charge of the Krebs programme to look at the control of TB and the elimination of badgers, recently stated that the large-scale control of badgers would be necessary to accomplish that, which could be unacceptable in the United Kingdom. What work is being done to look at alternatives such as the vaccination of badgers and of cattle, as well as the measures that the Minister mentioned?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right: there is an issue as to whether the trials which have just taken place should have been on a larger scale. They were not the trials that Professor Krebs originally designed, which Professor Bourne and his team set out to initiate, because of gross interference with the culling. We spend £15 million a year on vaccines, but obviously there is no perfect solution. As noble Lords know, there is a problem in the sense that there are no real tests for live badgers. Testing is being carried out for a field study of a badger vaccine. Trapping will start in June and an attempt at vaccination will start in September. With cattle, in January the Veterinary Laboratories Agency began further work in looking at new vaccine candidates and the delivery protocols. It is not easy to get the necessary badger vaccine to the badger.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, will the Minister—

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords—

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords—
 
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Lord Grocott: My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrats.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I agree with the Minister that he makes a very serious point and, although it may not sound like it, this too is a serious point: will he investigate the possibility of confirming the almost total decline of hedgehogs in this country since the doubling of badgers has occurred over the past decade? My understanding is that hedgehogs are treated as hors d'oeuvre by badgers. If this could be confirmed, perhaps public opinion would be less hostile to culling badgers sick with TB, and then a balanced programme in TB hotspots of culling both cattle and badgers with bovine TB can proceed in a balanced way.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I fully accept what the noble Lord said about the need for balance. In my experience—including two years in MAFF and even the past year in Northern Ireland, where there is an incidence of TB—I have never had a conservationist come with a delegation and say, "We are very worried about the TB in cattle", but I get plenty of people queuing up to say, "Leave the badger alone". But the badger is a predator. I accept that it is a protected species, but we have to look at this in the balance. It is very important for the food chain and animal health in this country that this issue is tackled seriously and in a mature way. It should be based on science, it is true, but the science does not always deliver the clear results where you can be absolutely certain that the route you take is the correct one.

Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, while the Minister is, of course, absolutely correct in confirming that this is an extremely complex issue, I am old enough to have seen the ravages of bovine tuberculosis in children when I was a young doctor. This caused not only spinal tuberculosis, with frequent paralysis of the limbs, but much damage to bones and other organs. Since that time, the universal pasteurisation of milk has protected the population very largely, but is it not the case that these isolates of bovine tuberculosis in wildlife and cattle still carry a threat to human health? For that reason, is it not important that every conceivable effort should be made to eliminate this infection?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right—pasteurisation is the key but, as in everything else, nothing is 100 per cent. I understand that there are still a few dozen—maybe 40 or 50—cases a year of bovine TB in humans. That is unacceptable.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that an objective assessment of compatibility with the JCHR on the complex jurisprudence will not always satisfy the practical requirements of government?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am completely lost. I am all in favour of human rights and I am in favour of
 
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cattle rights and badger rights. I am also in favour of doing something about animal health as it affects human health.

Terrorism: Extradition

3 pm

Lord Lamont of Lerwick asked Her Majesty's Government:

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor made it clear at the weekend that consideration shall be given to whether any changes to the Human Rights Act are required to protect public safety.

Lord Lamont of Lerwick: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does she realise that while the Attorney-General calls the Human Rights Act one of the Government's greatest achievements, many more people will agree with the Prime Minister that it is an abuse of common sense that we cannot extradite from this country people who have arrived here by hijacking passengers and aircraft? Who got us into this mess in the first place, and is it not time we had an urgent amendment of the Act?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, we need to be clear straightaway that issues of removal are governed by the ECHR. The noble Lord will remember, because his Government were then in being, that it was the case of Chahal in 1996 that imposed an impediment with regard to removal. Of course the noble Lord would not wish me to comment on a case that is still sub judice.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, will my noble friend accept that it is puzzling that those who so abuse our hospitality that they are prepared to maim or kill our citizens cannot be extradited to their countries of origin when we have doubts about the judicial system in that country or the regime of punishment? Will she confirm that our French colleagues take a far different and rather more robust view of extradition, for example to north Africa?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the comparative task my noble friend asks me to perform regarding the French system and ours would require a much longer response. There are those of us who honour our own system, and say it is sufficiently robust to respond appropriately. With regard to extradition, my noble friend will know that the Government have been working extremely hard to develop and pursue memorandums of understanding
 
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with other countries so that proper returns consistent with ECHR obligations can be undertaken. We are pursuing those with the greatest energy.

Lord Goodhart: My Lords, rather than trying to send people back to countries where they are likely to be killed and tortured, will the Government consider encouraging more use of the existing powers to prosecute in the United Kingdom terrorist offences committed elsewhere, and, if necessary, extending those powers?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the noble Lord will know, because we have had delightful, extensive conversations on terrorism across the Dispatch Box and elsewhere in this House, that we are taking every proper step to address terrorism, eradicate it and keep this country safe. I am sure that we on all Benches will use every effort to pursue that end and make sure the citizens of our country are as safe as we can make them.

Lord Morgan: My Lords, is it not the case that the problems of deportation have arisen through maladministration in the Home Office, and are not at all the responsibility of the Human Rights Act, which is one of the glories of this country and something that has made it truly civilised?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I take this opportunity to wish my noble friend a very happy birthday. Of course it is critical that we look with the greatest care at all issues of administration to make sure we have an administrative system that is as robust and effective as we can make it. That is something my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is determined to ensure we follow through on.


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