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Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, we are grateful to the Minister for presenting this order and explaining its purposes with such care. We are familiar with transfer of function orders in this House and this one appears to be as uncontroversial as the Minister claims. However, there are one or two questions that arise.
The transfer of functions under Section 1 of the Education (Fees and Awards) Act 1983 is sensible, since policy responsibility for student support has, as the Minister said, been transferred to the National Assembly, along with the other functions available under the 1983 Act. It is, therefore, no longer appropriate for the Secretary of State for Education and Skills to retain the power under Section 1 to make regulations regarding the charging of higher fees to students in higher and further education who do not have the requisite connections with the United Kingdom. I assume that we are talking here about foreign students only, coming here from overseas for their final years of education, but I require an assurance that this is the case. There has been talk in Wales of charging different fees to students whose homes are in Wales and students from outside Wales,
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including England and Scotland. Could Section 1 be used to impose such differential rates either on its own or in tandem with Section 2 of the 1983 Act?
As I understand it, top-up fees are to be introduced at Welsh institutions as from 2007–08. Students normally resident in Wales will get an Assembly grant of £1,800 annually towards their increased fees. English and Scottish students in Wales will not have such grants, nor will Welsh students attending English or Scottish universities. Is it the intention of the Assembly Government
in the words of the Explanatory Notes, to charge fees on this basis? Perhaps the Minister would clarify the position once and for all. He made certain things clear in his opening statement, but further clarification would be helpful.
As to the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order and the transfer of all functions under that very substantial order to the National Assembly, this is clearly a necessary consequence of the devolution of responsibility for the fire and rescue services that took place in November 2004. Where does that responsibility now lie in the Assembly and the Assembly Government? What is the title of the department? I ask because fire safety is very important and a number of significant powers will be transferred—for example, the power to make regulations about fire precautions, the power to authorise persons as the enforcing authority for certain non-domestic premises, the power to issue guidance to enforcing authorities, and the power to determine disputes.
As the Minister said, fire safety law has been updated and reformed in recent years. The fire safety order is a part of that reform and it is important that it is properly implemented. The emphasis, as I understand it, is on fire prevention in the workplace and, under the order, the responsible person for each premise will be required to carry out an assessment of the risk of fire and take steps to reduce or remove the risk.
All this spells careful control and supervision, especially in the early stages. What provision has been made at the Assembly or within the Assembly Government to carry out these functions adequately? I know that the National Assembly has been consulted on the order and has agreed to a modification of function—we are told this on page 5 of the 118-page document—and it would be good to know that preparations for receipt of these functions and their implementation are well in hand.
I understand that the Assembly is currently considering a fire and rescue services charging order to enable the authorities to charge for the services they provide. These may include the removal of floodwater, rescuing people from lift cabins and giving advice on safety in premises where a trade, business or other undertaking is carried on. I shall say no more on that issue because I believe the order is still subject to discussion and not yet finalised. If the Minister could
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tell us the latest state of play in the Assembly Government in regard to this transfer of function, we would be very grateful.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, on behalf of the Liberal Democrat Benches I welcome the order and the strengthening of the powers and authority of the National Assembly for Wales. We know there may be some teething troubles—possibly with the education awards and so on—but it will be good at the end of the first year of operations to look at the report to see where changes have to be made. Certainly, this is a step forward in the direction of evolution, not revolution.
My main concern about the fire safety regulations is that we are advised that 11 guides are to be available in regard to the kinds of non-domestic premises that will be covered by the regulations. I will not read them all but they include offices and shops, factories and warehouses, sleeping accommodation—I wonder what that covers—residential care premises, educational premises and so on. But there does not seem to be any reference at all to houses in multiple occupation, hotels and guest houses. I come from a very notable hotel area and it would be good to know that they will be covered and included in the regulations.
Will any advice be given to the various fire services as to where they should locate certain equipment? In Llandudno, we used to have one of those high-rise turntable ladders; I am sure that is the wrong term. Some of our hotels are six and seven storeys high—the equivalent of the Manhattan skyline in north Wales—and we need to be able to reach people who are trapped in the topmost rooms of these buildings. This has happened a number of times, once only in the past year, and I would be grateful if the Minister could assure me that the various fire service ladders and so on will be located where the need is greatest. With that question, I again give a general welcome to the order on behalf of these Benches.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Roberts of Conwy and Lord Roberts of Llandudno, for their general support in welcoming these orders and for their questions.
In response to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, the transfer of the education function deals solely with powers enabling the drafting of regulations governing institutions charging higher fees for foreign students. It does not cover students from, or who can demonstrate a connection with, the UK. The Education (Fees and Awards) Act 1983 does not provide powers to set fee levels for students from the UK. The making of regulations that govern variable top-up fees, grants and loans are the subject of different legislation not before the House today, and are already devolved.
To clarify the issue of student fees in Wales, however, under the Higher Education Act 2004 the Assembly Government will be making regulations that cover the arrangements for the 2007–08 academic
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year. Those regulations will enable students ordinarily resident in Wales and studying there to receive a fee remission grant of up to £1,800 towards university fees of a maximum £3,000. This has the effect of keeping the level of fees that Welsh-domiciled students have to find at £1,200, which is the current level of fixed fees in 2006–07. UK students from outside Wales studying at Welsh institutions and Welsh students studying outside Wales will not receive the grant. Cross-party support was given to this policy decision made by Members of the National Assembly for Wales in June 2005.
The Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 devolved to the National Assembly for Wales various powers in relation to fire and rescue authorities in Wales. Policy in this area is administered by the fire and rescue services branch of the Assembly Government's Social Justice and Regeneration Department. This department falls within the portfolio of the Minister for Social Justice and Regeneration, Mrs Edwina Hart AM. However, it should be noted that any relevant subordinate legislation in this area can be made only by the National Assembly for Wales itself.
The Minister for Social Justice and Regeneration has established an advisory structure comprising representatives of fire and rescue authorities serving FRS personnel, communities, business and others to help inform FRS policy development in the round. In addition, the Assembly Government provide both revenue and capital funding for the service in Wales.
In response to the two points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, I can confirm that hotels and guesthouses are included under the sleeping accommodation guide. In the matter of guidance on the location of aerial ladders for tall buildings, the Welsh Assembly Government published guidance on risk reduction planning, Fire and Rescue Service Risk Reduction Plan—Wales a Safer Country, on 21 March 2006. The guidance assists fire and rescue authorities in reducing risk while placing citizens, communities and stakeholders centre stage in the development of the FRA's agenda. While the guidance does not contain specific advice on the location of aerial appliances, it does provide a holistic approach to the management of service delivery, including the location and provision of fire resources. Fire and rescue authorities place resources such as aerial appliances where their chief fire officers determine as an operational matter where there is a high risk to life. I commend this order to the House.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
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