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Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, perhaps my noble friend will take his kid gloves off and start telling some opposition Members some of the facts of life. He should certainly not accept any lessons in arithmetic from the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, whose record we all still remember well.
Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, I meant the noble Lord, Lord Lamont. It is the same difference; they made the same sorts of mistakes.
Can the Minister now answer the question about tax credits and point out to the Opposition some of the benefits that have accrued from tax credits, such as the number of families and pensioners taken out of poverty, and perhaps give the noble Baroness the sort of drubbing that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister gave to the Leader of the Opposition at Question Time today?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I hesitate to be as robust as my noble friend, but I am happy to try to comply with what he says. Tax credits benefit 6 million families with 10 million children. So far as tackling child poverty is concerned, since 1996–97, 700,000
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children have been lifted out of relative poverty compared with a doubling of child poverty in the previous 20 years—the record of Members opposite. There are now over 1.8 million fewer children in absolute low-income families compared with 1996–97.
The tax burden on a single-earner couple with two children earning £21,000 has fallen from 17.3 per cent of gross earnings in 1997 to 9.8 per cent in 2004. That is the lowest rate of any G7 country. That is what tax credits are about.
Lord Newby: My Lords, will the Minister accept that many people find the attitude of the Treasury on the issue arrogant and complacent? In the constituency of a colleague of mine in another place, 1,800 of his 46,000 constituents have been overpaid by more than £2,000. Is not the truth simply that the system is not fit for purpose?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: No, my Lords, that is not the position. As I explained earlier, initially there were issues about the IT programme in particular and the administration. The changes that were introduced following the Pre-Budget Report are designed to address those issues and will improve the position. If we do not have a tax credit system, what is the alternative? Let me pick up the point about the view of Members opposite who seek to attack the system. I think that it was George Osborne in another place who said:
"I do not acknowledge that the present tax credit system has helped in the reduction of child poverty".—[Official Report, Commons, 12/7/05; col. 704.]
Let me also quote David Cameron from another place:
"I long for a chancellor who stands up and introduces a Budget which abolishes all of Brown's endless reliefs and credits—and uses the money to cut tax rates at the same time".
Is that now the official policy of the Opposition?
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords—
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Rooker): My Lords, we have already heard from two Conservatives. It is the turn of Members on this side.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend would agree that if lone parents in particular experience changes in circumstances, perhaps as many as a dozen in the course of a year, and yet the tax credit sum is adjusted only at the end of the year—just as happens with taxpayers—then inevitably there will be overpayments and underpayments, which are not errors but part of the structure. Does my noble friend agree that a lone parent on a minimum wage of just over £5 an hour will, as a result of tax credits, now take home pay at a rate of £10 an hour—being paid a man's wage? Is that not transforming for two generations—both the parent and the child?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I agree absolutely with my noble friend.
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Community Cohesion
3.30 pm
Lord Greaves asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will respond to the report of the Review of Community Cohesion in Oldham, Challenging Local Communities to Change Oldham, led by Professor Ted Cantle.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Andrews): My Lords, we welcome the publication of this report, which was commissioned by Oldham council. It recognises that Oldham and its partners have done a great deal to build community cohesion there since 2001. Despite that, the Government and Oldham Council recognise that there is no room for complacency. We remain committed to working with communities across the country and with the public, private and voluntary sectors, including faith communities, to help deliver real change in the future.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I welcome that reply and this report, which is full of good sense. When the disturbances took place in various northern towns five years ago, a series of reports was produced—one by Professor Cantle for the Government and others for Bradford, Burnley and Oldham—which pointed out the dangers of what were then called "parallel communities", where people live side by side but do not really interact. This report emphasises that,
Will the Government underline that message? The report continues:
"If there is one area we would highlight above all others in building community cohesion for the future, it is involving, engaging and mobilising Oldham's communities to take greater responsibility for change".
Do the Government agree that it is time for the communities themselves to take the lead and not just rely on public authorities?
Baroness Andrews: My Lords, all noble Lords can take comfort from the comment in the report that,
"few cities, towns or districts have done as much as Oldham in seeking to build community cohesion".
Over the past three or four years we have seen major developments in partnership building, reducing disadvantage and communities perceiving themselves as being more cohesive. All that is good news, but the noble Lord is right to point out that the report observes that real change means that communities themselves need to engage with it. We support that and will try to enable it in as many ways as we can.
Lord Clarke of Hampstead: My Lords, is my noble friend aware of another report published last Wednesday into a neighbouring town in the north-west entitled Burnley—The Real Story. That report, published five years after the disturbances referred to
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by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is actually a story of hope. If my noble friend has had a chance to read it, she will know of the investment made in the Elevate programme, in urban regeneration, in building schools for the future, and a litany of government, local government and county initiatives working to transform the lives of many people. According to the report, crime has been reduced in Burnley, and people are mixing better. I am pleased to inform the House that there is a story of hope in one town in the north-west, and I am sure that it is shared by many others.
Baroness Andrews: Yes, my Lords, the report is very heartening, and I pay tribute to the role that my noble friend has played in it. One of the most impressive points is that many more people now think that Burnley is a good place to live. It also shows how creating mixed communities through housing market renewal pathfinders and the Elevate programme brings in more choice and more opportunities to break down the barriers between some of the more segregated communities. So I am pleased to have had sight of it.
Lord Ouseley: My Lords, I congratulate the towns in the north of the UK that have made enormous strides in bringing about community cohesion over the past five years and congratulate all who have been involved in the programmes, but it is important to ensure that the voices of the people mentioned in the reports are heard. Is it not therefore the case that official reports should reflect the opinions of those who are among the excluded and that the experts writing the reports should ensure that the people in the communities that we are talking about are heard as a priority when reflecting and monitoring what is happening in those areas?
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