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Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for responding in that way; even though what she said was wholly unacceptable to this side of the House.
She did not address the question of the difference in standard between proposed new Sections 71L(1)(b) and 71T(5). Why is there a different standard for the treasurers? In new Section 71L we have the "negligence" standard; but in new Section 71T the only way in which a treasurer can be prosecuted is for "knowingly or recklessly" making a false declaration. Why is there a difference? It seems to me, on the face of it, to be wholly illogical.
I await the signal from the Box.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the reason I did not answer the question that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, quite rightly put to me is that I did not understand the answer I received. If I am completely honest, I do not understand this one either.
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, to say so does great credit to the noble Baroness.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I have to be honest—particularly when I am dealing with aspects of law because I know perfectly well that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is a very eminent lawyer. I would not accuse him of hypocrisy either, which is what he said.
I am told that the Bill follows the distinctions in the PPERA for donations. In other words, it continues to mirror, I think, what happens in that Act. So although the noble Lord quite rightly says there is a recklessness standard there, it mirrors exactly what happens in PPERA. I understand that to mean that when you look at the loans regime and the donations regime together, you will see that the criminal offences mirror each other. That is a very significant issue because it is the basis upon which I believe—having thought very hard about this—treasurers will find it easier to adapt to this regime because it will mirror what they have had before.
7 Jun 2006 : Column 1308
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I think the House is entitled to conclude that if the noble Baroness cannot give your Lordships a reason for the distinction, then the distinction is a mindless distinction. In those circumstances, I find that the Minister's response adds fuel to my determination to seek the opinion of your Lordships' House. I beg to move.
6.15 pm
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 27) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 115; Not-Contents, 126.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Blackwell, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chidgey, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cotter, L.
Courtown, E.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Feldman, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Garden, L.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goodlad, L.
Greaves, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hooper, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laidlaw, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Neuberger, B.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Roper, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trimble, L.
Tyler, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Windlesham, L.
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President.]
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Corston, B.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Moser, L.
Nicol, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soley, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
7 Jun 2006 : Column 1309
7 Jun 2006 : Column 1310
6.26 pm
Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No. 29:
"(14) This section does not apply to a transaction which is entered into before the commencement of section 60 of the Electoral Administration Act 2006."
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this group of amendments makes minor, technical amendments to new Part 4A of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 introduced by Clause 60, relating to the reporting of regulated transactions where that transaction is with an unauthorised participant.
Amendment No. 29 inserts subsection (14) into Section 71L of new Part 4A. Section 71L deals with offences relating to regulated transactions entered into with an unauthorised participant. This amendment puts beyond doubt that transactions entered into before the commencement of the Bill will not be subject to the conditions of Section 71L.
Amendment No. 53 confirms that a transaction report must also record any regulated transaction which is entered into by the party and a person who is not an authorised participant and is dealt with during the reporting period in accordance with the requirements of Section 71I or Section 71J. The amendment simply spells out more clearly when the transaction report must be submitted.
Amendments Nos. 57 and 58 add further detail to the information that must be provided in a quarterly or weekly report about an unauthorised participant. As well as the name and address of the unauthorised participant, the date when, and the manner in which, the transaction was dealt with must be given. The reference to the transaction being dealt with is a reference to the fact that such transactions are void, and any moneys received under them must be repaid to the person from whom they were received. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 30A, which had been incorrectly numbered as Amendment No. 49, not moved.]
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