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Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, we, too, support the amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
7.15 pm
Lord Adonis moved Amendment No. 3:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Adonis moved Amendment No. 4:
"(12) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1), (1A) or (2) to prove that he did not know, and could not reasonably be expected to know, that he was not subject to monitoring in relation to the activity."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 6, 7, 9, 10, 16, 17 and 26 to 29.
These are all minor and technical amendments to the Bill. I wrote to noble Lords before Third Reading explaining the intention behind them. Amendment No. 4 restricts the circumstances in which the individual commits an offence for engaging in regulated activity when he is not subject to monitoring. It provides a defence where an individual does not know and could not reasonably be expected to know that he was not subject to monitoring in relation to the activity. The individual may rely on that defence where, for example, the IBB has failed to inform the individual that they are barred and are no longer subject to monitoring. This requirement needs to be seen in the context of the strengthening of the Bill, at the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, in respect of the duties on the IBB to notify individuals.
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I have written to her setting out how we intend that that duty should be enforced by means of letters sent to the individual by recorded delivery and duly signed for.
Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 make a drafting clarification to amend a reference in Clause 14(1)(h) separating out direct payment recipients from the appointments covered currently in the same subsection. Amendments Nos. 9 to 11 clarify the drafting of primary care services in line with the newly introduced NHS consolidation Bill. Amendment No. 16 is a minor drafting correction. Clause 42 should apply to all the clauses that impose duties on employers, local authorities, keepers of registers and supervisory authorities to refer information to the IBB. This amendment ensures that Clause 29 concerning regulated activity providers and their duty to provide information on request is one of those.
Amendment No. 17 makes it clear that we have covered a situation where a nominee manages a direct payment on behalf of an individual. Amendments Nos. 26 and 27 are drafting changes to ensure that the Bill meets the policy intention that a person does not engage in regulated activity if he teaches, trains, instructs, cares for or supervises children where that teaching, training, instruction, caring for or supervising is merely incidental to the teaching, training, instruction, caring for or supervising of adults.
Amendments Nos. 28 and 29 are minor technical amendments to correct a drafting error in the Bill. The term "public interactive communication service" is intended to cover the various methods by which individuals can make contact with each other and exchange personal information with other users of the service in a virtual public space such as, but not limited to, internet chat rooms, message boards, mobile chat services, TV text-to-screen services, online games with chat or messaging facilities and mobile games with chat facilities. The full term is already used in paragraphs 2(5) and 5(2) of Schedule 3. These are all minor and technical amendments. I beg to move.
Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, I shall comment briefly on Amendment No. 4, which we welcome. We have maintained throughout the passage of the Bill that it is necessary to have the correct checks and balances in place to ensure that the system operates as fairly and practicably as possible. This amendment goes further in that direction and offers further parameters and clarity, which we welcome. However, it highlights the need for good communications from the IBB. If an individual is included on a barred list he needs to be made aware of the situation as quickly as is reasonably possible. This relates to an amendment that was originally moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. It is good that the Minister has responded to that concern about strong communication.
Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I welcome Amendment No. 4 in particular, which involves the defence of not being reasonably able to know that the
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person had been subject to monitoring. Notwithstanding the much more robust system that we now have, following my amendments, to inform the person and to ensure that we know that they have received information about being on the barred list, I pointed out on Report that mistakes sometimes get made, that letters do not arrive and that people do not get the information that they should get. It is only right that we have this defence of not being reasonably expected to know. I am grateful to the Government for bringing this forward; it is absolutely right.
Lord Adonis: My Lords, I am very grateful to both noble Baronesses. I believe that these amendments notably improve the Bill.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 14 [Exception to requirement to make monitoring check]:
Baroness Buscombe moved Amendment No. 5:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I speak to this amendment with considerable optimism in terms of the Minister's reply. I make no apology for returning to this issue again. I made the point in Grand Committee and on Report that to exempt individuals who work with prisoners and those on probation, particularly the young, from monitoring simply does not seem logical. As I said before, we are referring not to hardened criminals but to the significant number of vulnerable adults and young offenders who live in close proximity to those in authority and who are effectively open to abuse in an enclosed environment.
I am aware that the Minister is taking, and has taken, this matter very seriously, and I am looking forward to his reply in this regard. At this point, perhaps I may say that I am very grateful to the Minister, as I am sure are other noble Lords, for the meeting that we had with him and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, yesterday to discuss some of these aspects of the Bill. We were heartened to learn that Ministers had responded. We had asked them to keep working hard with regard to Clause 14 between Report and Third Reading and clearly they have done that. Therefore, we are aware that real progress is being made in this regard, for which we are grateful, and also in relation to other aspects of Clause 14, but obviously I wait to hear the Minister's reply.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment No. 8, which is grouped with Amendment No. 5. We thoroughly support the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, in her Amendment No. 5, and we are also looking forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.
Clause 14 lists a whole series of possible exceptions to the monitoring check. There was extensive discussion about them both in Grand Committee and on Report, with a great deal of unhappiness expressed on all sides of the Chamber about some aspects of them. We have again sought to leave out Clause 14 in
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order to give the Minister a chance to inform the House and put on the record the developments in his thinking on these issues and on how this matter might be carried forward.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for the meeting that we held yesterday and for the way in which he has listened throughout the proceedings on the Bill. That, together with the changes that we have seen, will mean, as the two noble Baronesses have said, that the Bill will leave this House in a much better condition than it was in when it came here.
However, I must still express—I do so even though I have not tabled an amendment—my considerable ill ease about parts of the list. I have dealt with these kinds of issues in my professional life, and I continue to be anxious about exceptions in situations where, quite frankly and crudely, people who are vulnerable and who do not know how to say no are taking off their clothes and hands are being laid on. We know that that can arise in sporting situations. However, I recognise that the Government have thought this matter through. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say, and I will do all that I can to work with the Government to make their solutions work.
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