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Division No.

Division No. 2>

Addington, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bowness, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnett, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chidgey, L.
Chorley, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cotter, L.
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenarthur, L.
Goodlad, L.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inge, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E. [Teller]
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Palumbo, L.
Patten, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone,
Ramsbotham, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Teverson, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trimble, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.


Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Bramall, L.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
David, B.
Davidson of Glen Clova, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dearing, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L. [Teller]
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grantchester, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate,
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quin, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Skidelsky, L.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Soley, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Thornton, B.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.

28 Jun 2006 : Column 1220

On Question, Motion B, as amended, agreed to.

Government of Wales Bill

5.14 pm

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Clause 92 [Assembly Measures]:

Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 36A:

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 36A I shall also speak to Amendments Nos. 60A, 60B and 60C. All these amendments qualify the decision to adopt a Welsh Assembly measure in the Privy Council by requiring that the measure, prior to the Privy Council decision, is adopted by a resolution in both Houses of Parliament. In order for me to put these amendments in context, it may be helpful to the House if I remind your Lordships of the statutory scheme in Part 3 of the Bill. It is a scheme of breathtaking complexity. I said, earlier, that it was serpentine in conception and labyrinthine in application. If anything, that is an understatement.

The procedure involves a two-stage statutory scheme for devolving power to the Welsh Assembly by a system of Orders in Council. Stage one of the process delegates to the Welsh Assembly, by Order in Council, the power to legislate on certain matters in certain areas that appear in Schedule 5 to the Bill. The second stage, stage two, gives the Welsh Assembly the authority to make what are called Assembly measures, as long as those measures are within the scope of the order passed at stage one.

Rather confusingly, Part 3 of the Bill starts not with the stage one orders, but with the stage two orders; that is to say, the orders that confirm the Assembly measures. It then goes on to consider stage one orders, the devolving orders. This amendment concerns the end of the Part 3 legislative procedure, stage two orders, not the beginning.

I felt it necessary to say that before I turn to the amendment itself. The issue behind the amendments is whether the procedure set out in Part 3 is a subordinate or a primary legislative procedure. If your Lordships were to glance at the proceedings in another place, particularly the speeches made by the right honourable gentleman Mr Hain, you would quickly apprehend that he was extremely concerned to emphasise that this
28 Jun 2006 : Column 1221
procedure was a subordinate procedure. The Government do not want to admit that, without a referendum, they are delegating primary legislative powers to the Welsh Assembly through the Bill.

The reality, of course, is that it is not a subordinate procedure, though there are certain exceptions to which I shall come in a minute. The provisions in the second stage Order in Council are automatic, following the decision of the Welsh Assembly. That was recognised by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford—I see him nodding—in an exchange that I had with him in Committee.

There is a constitutional convention that whenever an Order in Council is to be made in the Privy Council, it is first tabled both in your Lordships' House and in another place for a certain period of time. Sometimes the procedure is the procedure of negative resolution and sometimes it is the procedure of affirmative resolution, but the order is always tabled in draft before it goes to Buckingham Palace. Why is that not the case in this Bill? Why are the Government breaking that constitutional convention for subordinate legislation?

In Committee, in an exchange I had with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, who I see is in his place, when I suggested that the parliamentary procedure should be interposed, the Minister said:

In other words, the Government are saying that this is a subordinate procedure, but that for some extraordinary and unarticulated reason the convention in relation to subordinate measures should not apply. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, is using precisely the argument which convinced the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that we are in reality talking about primary legislation.

I have one further observation to make about the noble Lord's intervention at col. 550. Why is Parliament not allowed to interpose itself between the Welsh Assembly measure and the Buckingham Palace procedure, when the Secretary of State is? If the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, turns to Clause 100, which is entitled Power to intervene in certain cases, he will see that although Parliament is not allowed to have any further say, the Secretary of State is. I apologise for the tedium but it is worth reading out the relevant subsection to your Lordships' House.

Clause 100(1) states:

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Clause 100(2) says:

that is, the Clerk of the Assembly—

So, in the context of Clause 100, what of the democratic rights of the Welsh Assembly? They can be interfered with by the Secretary of State, but the democratically elected Parliament of the United Kingdom is not to be allowed to have any further say. In my submission, these clauses are complete hypocrisy and should be expunged. I beg to move.

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