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Bad outcome No. 4 is the appeals mechanism, to which the Minister made reference. The timescale is limited to 28 days. An operator must appeal within that time, but that is before he has carried any passengers and before he knows how many passengers he will be carrying or what costs or losses he may face.
Lord Hogg of Cumbernauld: My Lords, the noble Lord’s doom-laden speech is depressing us here on the Back Benches. Does he not agree that the scheme in Scotland, which was introduced by a Liberal Democrat Transport Minister, is very similar to what is being introduced here?
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, if the noble Lord will be a little patient, I shall come on to Scotland, but first I think that it is pertinent to focus on the problems that need to be addressed if we are to go forward with a new scheme.
The appeals system, to which the Minister referred, means that people have to appeal very early. The law, as it is written now, says that if after 28 days one finds something wrong, it is too late as one cannot appeal after 28 days. That means that the appeal is not evidence-based, which is a defect.
There are other bad outcomes, but there is also the overwhelming good outcome that more people are using buses. I noticed in my district council area that the number is up about 45 per cent. Many more people are using buses, despite the defects to which I have referred and despite what the noble Lord opposite said. We want an even better outcome that gives further scope to grow the market and to redirect subsidy to increase the market further.
The Treasury has long been concerned—why we should worry about the Treasury's concern I am not sure—that subsidies paid to bus users should be more accurately targeted, particularly what used to be called the fuel duty rebate and is now called the bus service operators grant, which reimburses operators for the fuel that they burn rather than the number of passengers whom they carry. The many studies into the subject have always concluded that fuel duty rebate is very easy to pay and there is no simple
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Perhaps I may pay tribute to my friends north of the Border, who seem rather anxious that we should include them in this discussion. The Scottish citizens’ pass is a smart card that enables the number of passengers using the buses to be counted. I can assure noble Lords that it will do that in time. The passenger now gives the pass to the bus driver, but he or she will touch it on a reader and it will record the journey made.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that that is not the case. That is certainly the case in London, but in Scotland it is an ordinary card and the bus driver has to record the fact that someone has made that particular journey.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. That is the situation at the moment. Soon there will be smart-card readers. Once the card is enabled, like the Oyster card in London, one will not have to engage the driver at all. It is not there yet but that is on the way. As well as in Scotland, smart cards are being introduced in Blackpool, in the north-west, in Lancashire, in Cumbria, in south Yorkshire and in Oxford and, of course, we have the Oyster card in London.
We should move quickly to an ITSO-compliant smart card, nationally available and compatible throughout Great Britain. There will be some risks. The Minister made great play of the fact that there will be much consultation on this, but the scheme is supposed to be introduced in April 2008, so there is limited time for consultation. Decision time, which is not well beloved of Ministers, is very close. They will have to decide whether to go forward with a smart card rather than spending lots of time consulting on it. There are risks and costs, but the rewards are substantial. First, there is much reduced scope for fraud by both the user and the operator. There is currently nothing to prevent an unscrupulous operator from pressing the button several times for non-existent passengers. Secondly, there will be a much better system of reimbursement for operators, targeted to where people actually use buses.
If we have a national scheme, the money can go to where people are using buses. For example, lots of people come to Blackpool in the summer, but the Blackpool Corporation currently gets no money from them. Bus operators in honeypot areas—be they Edinburgh, Blackpool, London or wherever—should get some reward for what they provide. We could have one set of centrally negotiated national reimbursement rates and consider a growth factor where operating costs have demonstrably increased. In some cases, there are so many extra people using the buses that more have to run. Providing more buses is expensive.
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Where they exist, passenger transport authorities should be the conduit for the money. Otherwise, district councils, which are not transport authorities, should not be involved in smart cards, the cash flow or negotiations with operators. Where those district councils are highway authorities, they should concentrate on the issues of the free flow of buses in their area. Bus drivers, who have a difficult enough job anyway, should not be involved except to see that a valid smart card is presented to the card reader on the bus. That could well speed up boarding times and shorten journey times.
I understand that my proposal moves risk to government, although much of the work involved can be outsourced to some other organisation. If a local authority wishes to extend their scheme’s scope, they should be able to do so, as the Minister said. I suggest that that should be at their expense, however.
Although there are risks, their evaluation will quickly become evidence-based because there is a record of every journey. That opens the way to revising, if anybody wants to, the system of bus service operators grant. Smart cards depend on each bus having a card reader, like the buses in London. Fitting those will have a cost, but smart cards should be regarded as the golden key, bringing rationality to a sprawling and rather shambolic system of bus-user subsidy and appealing to the Secretary of State.
As the Minister said, the Bill is enabling legislation; real meat will appear in the regulations. I hope that real discussions will take place with all involved, mapping a quick way forward. I wish the Bill every success and hope that the Minister will take account of what I have said.
3.33 pm
Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I imagine most of us in this House will welcome the Bill. It implements the Government’s commitment that everyone aged 60 and over, and disabled people, should enjoy free off-peak travel on all local buses anywhere in England from April 2008, replacing the current scheme which restricts free travel to a single local authority area. It continues the process begun in 2001 with the introduction of half-price travel for disabled people, which was extended into the present scheme in 2006. From 2008, as we have heard, free travel will be extended to local, off-peak bus travel across local authority boundaries provided the bus stops at least every 15 miles. I have a friend who lives more or less at the point where Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire meet. He finds it virtually impossible to go any distance before crossing a local authority boundary, so the Bill will be beneficial to him.
The Bill is a welcome enhancement of the scheme for elderly and disabled people, but more still needs to be done to ensure that it fully meets the mobility needs of disabled people. I was pleased to hear the Minister say that one of the objectives of the Bill is to combat social exclusion. Disabled people are among the most socially excluded people in the country, and I hope that it may be possible to make some further improvements to the Bill to combat the social
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It would be good if the Minister could consider five things as the Bill goes through the House: first, free travel at peak times in the morning; secondly, free travel on other modes of transport; thirdly, free travel for a companion where the person’s impairment means that he cannot access transport on his own; fourthly, concessions to apply to community transport services such as dial-a-ride; and, fifthly, a definition of disability that makes clear that the Bill covers all disabled people whose impairments affect their ability to use public transport, including those with mental health problems.
We would all be glad to have free travel at peak times in the morning, but there are good reasons for introducing it preferentially for disabled people. First, it is often necessary for disabled people to use public transport even for short journeys rather than walk. I do it myself and did so this morning. I will take a bus just one stop, where someone else would walk, in order to give myself the choice of a greater number of buses. Secondly, for persons with restricted mobility, the pedestrian environment is often inaccessible or unsafe. Thirdly, disabled people are typically less well off. According to the report, Disability in Great Britain, the incomes of disabled adults are 20 to 30 per cent below those of non-disabled people, even when disability benefits are taken into account. Fourthly, that has a lot to do with their lack of employment opportunities.
The recent annual report of the New Policy Institute, which is funded by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, reported that disabled people are twice as likely to be unemployed as non-disabled people and pointed to the lack of access to paid work as the main reason for poverty among disabled people. Recent research on a sample of 1,000 blind and partially sighted people showed an employment rate of only 34 per cent and research by the RNIB—in which, as its chairman, I obviously have an interest—suggests that blind and partially sighted people who are employed are more likely to be in lower paid jobs. It is sometimes thought that disabled people in employment may obtain assistance with the cost of travelling to and from work through the Access to Work scheme run by the Department for Work and Pensions, but that form of financial support is available only to disabled people who are unable to use public transport. For all these reasons, free bus travel at people’s normal travel to work time would support the Government’s welfare to work agenda for disabled people.
Restricting concessionary travel during morning peak periods has a number of untoward consequences. As the Government have improved the minimum concessionary fare scheme for older and disabled people, some local authorities have degraded schemes that offered more than the statutory minimum. For example, schemes that provided free morning peak travel for blind people but not for other disabled people or older people have come under pressure. As the proud possessor of a London Freedom Pass, which entitles me to free travel at all
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There have been no time restrictions on using the Freedom Pass in the morning peak in London since April 2003, and that has not caused any particular difficulties, despite the huge pressure on public transport in the morning peak in the capital. But blind people elsewhere, as in Warwickshire, have not always been so lucky.
Needless to say, organisations representing disabled people would prefer to see the London solution adopted, with schemes that previously offered free morning peak travel only to blind people being extended to disabled people generally. That is what the Scottish scheme offers, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, which means that the scheme for England contained in the Bill, if it is not improved, will provide yet another unfavourable comparison with what is available in Scotland. At the very least, reciprocal arrangements with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should be established. I was very pleased to hear the Minister's assurance that that will be done.
It should be clearly understood that in arguing for morning peak schemes for blind people to be retained and extended to other disabled people, my motives are entirely altruistic and not ones of self-preservation. I simply want the good fortune which I am lucky enough to enjoy extended to more of my fellow men. It might be thought that this was an oasis of privilege enjoyed by blind people that ought to go. It runs somewhat counter to the generally disadvantaged position of blind people, which I talked about in my maiden speech, but I would call it a case of compensatory advantage, rather than one of privilege.
As we have heard from the Minister, the Bill will not prevent local authorities from continuing to offer concessions which are more generous than the statutory minimum, but that approach effectively offers a postcode lottery. The Warwickshire example shows that local authorities cannot be relied on to provide or to continue to provide free morning peak travel where it has previously been available to all or some disabled people, so that needs to be part of the statutory minimum scheme.
The other points that I mentioned at the beginning of my speech can be dealt with somewhat more briefly. First, I mentioned concessions on other modes of transport. In some areas, concessionary fare passes can be used for taxis, community transport and other door-to-door transport. That is particularly important in rural areas and it would be good if the Bill could do something to make such provision more generally available.
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Secondly, I mentioned travelling with a companion. Not all disabled people are able to access mainstream public transport on their own. Concessions should be available to allow a companion to travel free of charge where that is necessary to enable the disabled person to access public transport. That is already provided for under the Welsh scheme and there is no good reason why the English scheme should be inferior. It is invidious that distinctions of that sort should operate in different parts of the country. In some cases, disabled people will not be able to access mainstream public transport even with assistance, and concessionary fares should therefore also be available on community transport and similar door-to-door services.
Thirdly, there is a good case for having a definition of disability in the Bill but there are concerns about proposed new subsection (4) in Clause 1, which requires the issuing of concessionary fares to those who appear to be disabled. That leaves too much room for subjective and potentially discriminatory discretion. New subsection (6) goes on to state:
to which local authorities “must have regard”. It would be very helpful if “may” could be changed to “shall”.
Very clear guidance was issued following the introduction of the minimum half-price concessionary fare for disabled people under the Transport Act 2000. However, in addition to that guidance, Section 151(4) of the Act specified that disabled people with a broad range of impairments were covered. Between the guidance and the primary legislation, most impairments—with the exception of those with mental health problems—were explicitly covered. It is to be hoped that, for the avoidance of doubt, a similar approach can be adopted with this legislation and a definition agreed that includes all disabled people whose impairments affect their ability to use public transport, including those with mental health problems.
In conclusion, I repeat my welcome for the Bill and say that it is very useful; it makes a clear improvement in concessionary travel arrangements for bus passengers. However, I should be grateful if the Minister would consider my various points about extending the scheme somewhat further to benefit disabled people in the interests of combating the social exclusion that they so generally experience.
3.46 pm
Baroness Quin: My Lords, I, too, welcome the Bill and this opportunity to comment on it. I also welcome the approach to the whole issue that was outlined by the Minister when he introduced the Bill.
My interest in concessionary bus travel led me, when I was a Member of the other place, to introduce a Bill, in the autumn of 2003, that was very much along the lines of this Bill. At that time, my Bill attracted much Back-Bench support and demonstrated a strong level of dissatisfaction with the situation at that time: concessionary bus travel arrangements were very patchy across the country and could genuinely be described as involving a
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What is being proposed was always an affordable and sensible measure with obvious nationwide benefits. Indeed, survey after survey of older people, particularly those on low incomes, has identified transport—its cost, affordability and availability—as an important issue for that section of the population. It had an obvious link with their quality of life.
The Minister mentioned the cost involved, which he put at something like £350 million. That compares very favourably with many other transport commitments that the Government have entered into. I remember when I introduced my Bill that the Government announced a costing of, I believe, an extra £340 million for London Transport in connection with the preparation of the bid for the Olympics—at that stage, we had not been fortunate enough to have won the bid. It struck me then that that was a very good example of how affordable this measure was; it would have such obvious nationwide benefits.
The principal step forward was taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the 2004 Budget. Nonetheless, the Bill is important in several respects, not least in the key change of removing the artificial barriers that local authority boundaries impose on the beneficiaries of concessionary travel. Important, too, is the change to allow for reciprocal arrangements across the UK—the subject of the exchange between the Minister and my noble friend Lord Foulkes. I therefore very much welcome the Bill as a whole, but in speaking today I shall focus particularly on the application of the Bill’s provisions to my own part of the country, the north-east, and in particular to the Tyne and Wear metro system that serves the Tyne and Wear conurbation.
Originally, as the Minister will know, the Tyne and Wear metro system was designed as an integrated transport system in the late 1970s. Unfortunately, not long after it was set up, two separate blows affected it very badly. The first was the abolition of the metropolitan county, which was the co-ordinating authority for the metro system. The second was bus deregulation a few years later. I recall a valiant effort at the time in your Lordships’ House to exempt the Tyne and Wear system from the effects of bus deregulation, but unfortunately that effort was ultimately unsuccessful.
I do not mention bus deregulation and the Tyne and Wear system primarily from an ideological perspective, although ideological arguments raged about bus deregulation when it was brought in. The opposition to it in my area, particularly these days, has been based very much on the fact that it adversely affected what had been designed as an integrated bus and rail system. There was obvious congestion, which greatly concerned business in particular in our region because competing buses were crossing the River Tyne at the various river crossing points, greatly
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Ironically at the time of bus deregulation, the GLC and London were exempt. I contend that the London solution would have helped Tyne and Wear all along. Interestingly, the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, mentioned the comparisons between London and the rest of the country, and I very much agreed with his points about that. Indeed, absolute parity with London in financial support and the regulatory regime would still be the best way forward for my part of the country.
When the Chancellor’s measures first came into effect in the north-east, sadly the immediate impact was not as positive as many of us who had been urging the concessionary travel arrangements to be brought in had hoped. The reason, as I am sure the Minister will know, is that the measures applied to buses but not to trains in the metro system. Given that the whole system was integrated, it obviously made sense for concessionary travel to apply to all passengers on the metro system, whether travelling by bus or train, but instead a financial penalty was incurred, which made the situation very difficult. The good news about concessionary travel was more than offset by the negative news about cuts in other services—particularly the deterioration in the teen discount travel arrangements, the axing of 11 of the subsidised routes of the Tyne and Wear system, and increases in child fares—in order to finance the concessionary travel scheme. All these measures were, of course, accompanied by very unfavourable publicity.
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