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Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made earlier today by her right honourable friend the Home Secretary. This is indeed a serious matter. It is one which potentially threatens the safety of the public. In effect, the Home Office has been sitting on details of 27,500 British citizens convicted of offences abroad, details that were brought to public attention only yesterday when the Association of Chief Police
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So of course the Home Secretary is right to put in place the inquiries that are outlined today in the Statement. However, it would have been so much better if the Home Office systems operated efficiently and effectively so that this database failure had never occurred in the first place. It is the latest in a series of database failures at the Home Office: the Criminal Records Bureau, the sex offenders register and the police fingerprint system, to mention just the most notorious in the past two or three years.
In response to questions from the Floor, the Home Secretary said earlier today that when he took office he specifically asked his officials whether there were any known dangers of systems failures. He said he was not told of any problems. That is, indeed, alarming.
This morning the Home Office Minister Joan Ryan gave interviews on both television and radio. I watched and listened carefully. She was asked whether Ministers knew of Home Office failures before yesterday. At first, she merely said that as far as she knew the current Ministers did not know of the situation until yesterday. That seemed to well and truly drop Mr Clarke in it. Then, when pressed further, she appeared to say that as far as she knew it was the Ministers who were new to the Home Office last year who did not know of the fiasco. She did not say about the others. That implied that Mr McNulty and the noble Baroness were being put in the frame. I thought that it was rather unfortunate to do that when the noble Baroness did not have the opportunity to reply at that stage.
So I give the Minister the opportunity to put the record straight immediately today. Did she have any knowledge of the matter before yesterday? Has she ever made inquiries regarding the processing of the information received from overseas governments on UK citizens convicted of crimes abroad? Has she ever made inquiries about the robustness of the information systems involved?
The opening sentence of the Statement specifically refers to crimes committed in Europe, and the Minister mentioned the Convention of Europe, the protocol. What is the position with regard to British nationals convicted of crime outside the Convention of Europe area? How are they currently tracked?
Much has been made today by Ministers, in the media and in another place, of the inadequacy of the information that is sometimes supplied by other governments to the Home Office. We are told that it is just a matter of Mr John Smith with no detail, no address, and nothing more than that. Are our methods any more efficient when we send information to overseas governments about their citizens who have been sentenced in the UK? Let us say it is a Herr Johannes Schmitt; do we give his last known address and sufficient detail to track swiftly his whereabouts?
Finally, the Home Secretarys Statement refers to the identification of 540 of the most serious offenders from the 27,500 files. Of those 540, 280 cannot be entered on the police computer and are the subject of further inquiries to the notifying country. Of that rump of 280, by the polices definition, very serious offenders, how many were convicted of murder, how many of rape and how many of other sex offences? What timescale does the Home Office have in mind for obtaining enough information on those 280 to be able to enter them on the police computer? They must surely continue to pose a threat to public safety. I am aware that the whole House is at one in wanting to make sure that public safety comes first in our minds.
Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, can the Minister explain why it has taken 48 years for us to begin to approach an efficient system of recording foreign convictions in this country since the 1959 Council of Europe Convention on Mutual Legal Assistance? Does it not expose a shocking lack of co-ordination, both in Europe at large and between the authorities in this country?
Will the noble Baroness confirm that as a result of the facts disclosed in this Statement, public safety has been put at risk in two particular areas? First, is there not a real possibility that people have been employed with close access to children and to the mentally ill, who would have been excluded if proper Criminal Records Bureau checks had been possible? Secondly, does she agree that judges may well have been sentencing British nationals with very serious convictions abroad on an entirely false premise; that is, not knowing of those convictions abroad? Had they had that information, it might have made the difference between a short determinate sentence and an indeterminate sentence for public protection and IPP, which is becoming more common as a result of the policies of this Government.
Why is that described in the Statement as a backlog of unrecorded overseas crimes? Is it not the case that every one of those crimes has been recorded in the country where the conviction took place? Why have not the Government taken steps during their years in officethroughout claiming to be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crimeto find out the records of those crimes committed by British nationals in other European countries?
Will the Minister confirm that the Statement covers only part of the problem: British nationals convicted in Europe? What about the many European nationals resident in the United Kingdom who may have criminal convictions recorded against them? What are the Government doing to ensure that their convictions are available through the Criminal Records Bureau, so that they do not wrongly fall into employment to which they are not entitled or find themselves sentenced on too weak a basis in court?
Will the Minister tell us what percentage of those convictions are recorded with only a namejust a name, as the phrase goes in the Statement? Is it a
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Will the Minister confirm that the convictions that we are considering include convictions for homicide, including murder, serious sexual offences, other offences of serious violence and dealing in class A drugs? If, as surely must be the case, the answer to that question is yes, can she explain to the House why a simple procedure was not used whereby the most serious offences were matched to what appeared to be the relevant names so that, if consideration of those names occurred either in terms of employment or in court, at least the information went before the relevant authority and could then be litigated if necessary?
Can the Minister explain to us why so many bodies are involved? Why are the Home Office, the PNC, ACPO and the Criminal Records Bureau all involved? Surely there is an overwhelming case for a single body, the Criminal Records Bureau, to deal with the co-ordination of European conviction information from beginning to end. Can she confirm that the Criminal Records Bureau will be given the extra resources needed so that those 27,500 convictions can be incorporated in its database? Will she confirm that the review of three months or six weeksor however long it takeswill not simply be used as a fig leaf to allow that deficiency to continue for several more years to come?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I will seek to deal with each of those issues in order, if I may. First, on the knowledge of the matter under inquiry, none of the Ministers knew of the precise problem identified. What was known prior to Maythis is the reason why the then Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, took the step that he didwas that there was an issue about how we should better manage information that had been coming on an ad hoc, voluntary basis and so he set up a proper system to ensure that that which had gone before was changed and put into proper order. As my right honourable friend the Home Secretary said, that was appropriate and proper.
To take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, when the issue arose as to which body should be appointed to be the central authority, a number of entities were able to tender. ACPO submitted a tender and succeeded in getting this role. The main reason for that, as noble Lords will appreciate, is that the police national computer, on to which information is put, is very much within police control, and it was thought that this was the most appropriate opportunity and that ACPO was the most appropriate agency to deal with it. There is no suggestion that that was not the right decision to take because of the very close working relationship between the police and, indeed, the CRB.
On the numbers involved, the ACPO evidence to the Home Affairs Committee was that there was a backlog of 27,500 criminal records, and that notifications were received. ACPO has also confirmed the breakdown of the offences. We were told that, among the serious
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The police are looking very carefully to identify cases in which we simply have a name. I do not at this precise moment have a case-by-case breakdown so that I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, that there are X number of cases in which simply a name was put forward and that there are Y number of cases with an address. We understand that some of these notifications were not made in English, some did not have the full address, and some did not form a part of a tight record. We therefore have a very broad spectrum of information that must be looked at, and I am assured by information that ACPO has given to us that in all those cases where it has been possible correctly to identify the individual concerned, that individual has been placed on the police national computer. As I said when I repeated the Statement, the CRB has made efforts to check whether it has received requests for information on any of those people and whether that has, or would have been, altered by it. Those inquiries are currently under way and, as I indicated in the Statement, we are hopeful that the CRB will be able to give us information on that by the end of the week.
On the other questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, noble Lords will know that we have been pursuing with some vigour with our European partners the issue of British nationals who have committed offences in Europe. We have asked on several occasions how we can better manage data between ourselves and others. Noble Lords will be aware, for example, that only three European membersthe UK, Ireland and Francehave a sex offenders register, and we are exhorting others to follow our example.
On the information that we give to other EU and Council of Europe countries, we endeavour to give as much information as we canindeed, all the details that would enable the proper identification of individuals whom we know aboutto other member states. One of the points that ACPO made in evidence to the Select Committee yesterday was that we are still receiving inaccurate and inadequate information from many of our partners so that, even now that we have a new central authority, it is often difficult to identify correctly those who have committed offences in another country and who are returned. We are making strenuous efforts to correct that. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has made it clear that he will continue to raise this issue with his counterparts in the Justice and Home Affairs Council.
We have taken these issues very seriously. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, that the three-month review will not be a fig leaf. These issues have to be, and will be, pursued. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has taken responsibility for so doing.
Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, my sympathies are with the Home Secretary, who faces another shambles in his office. When Dr Reid went to the Home Office and found it, in his own words, not fit for purpose, did he ask his Permanent Secretary whether the Home Office had the faintest idea of any further skeletons in the cupboard? If Mr Andy Burnham, the then junior Minister in charge of records, was not told of this problem, who knew in the Home Office and at what level were they?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, my noble and learned friend will know that it is for that precise reason that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has asked the Permanent Secretary to undertake an inquiry to establish what the chronology was, who knew, when the matter came to light and how appropriately it was dealt with, so that we can learn lessons. I am not in a position today, this matter having arisen in the way that it has, to tell your Lordships that I have access to any such chronology. We will discover the full picture once the issue has been properly explored.
I should have said in answer to a question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, that the CRB is taking steps to work as hard as it can with other countries. For example, we are looking at working with a number of other countries to get better clarification. The CRB is seeking to establish reciprocal arrangements with countries outside Europe such as Australia. This is important work and we will continue to pursue it with a great deal of energy.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, the Minister did not answer the questions which were put to her by my noble friend Lady Anelay, who asked whether she would explain what she knew and what questions she had asked. Will she now answer those questions? Furthermore, will she bear in mind that this is yet another sign of total incompetence from this miserable department? Twenty-five per cent of the Questions in this House which are overdue an Answer are with the Home Office. We have seen a whole series of examples of incompetence. Does the Minister not agree that it is time that we had a debate in your Lordships' House about the incompetence of the Home Office? I know that she will say that this is a matter for the Leader of the House. In view of all this, will she go to the Leader of the House and say that she thinks that it is time to have a debate on the incompetence of the Home Office?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the short answer to that question is no. Although I accept that errors have been made in the Home Office, it is grossly unfair to refer to it as an incompetent and miserable department. The Home Office shoulders on behalf of this country the most enormous responsibility. In the greater part of the work that it does, through the diligence, hard work and commitment of its officialsand the Ministers who have been privileged to work in itit would be a travesty so to describe it.
I say in response to the noble Baroness that, as far as I am aware, I have never been directly or indirectly responsible for this issue. To the best of my knowledge and belief, I was not asked at any time to take on that responsibility.
However, bearing in mind the breadth of responsibility that I hold on behalf of this department and the answers that I have to give to this House from time to time, I have to say to the noble Baroness that I cannot be sure, without looking through all the documentationand without the department having had that opportunitywhether at any stage a piece of paper has come through my hands which may have so described this issue. Therefore, when I make that statement, I hope that the House understands that, as the Minister responsible for the whole of the Home Office portfolio in this House, it would be impossible and improper for me to assert that there has never been any piece of paper, which may have been in one of the files when I have stood at this Dispatch Box, which might have contained something which I now do not recall.
The Lord Bishop of Worcester: My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is some danger of a loss of perspective here? Much of the data, which we are now very concerned about, until relatively recently would not have even been available. Part of the difficulty is the fact that we all suffer, in all sorts of areas of our lives, from a massive data overload, which strains to the limit an enormous number of systems.
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