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The constraint that my noble friend introduced into the debate is of great importance—namely, climate change and the role that air travel plays in that. As we have explained, aviation is a difficult issue to tackle with regard to climate change, because no one country can tackle it on its own. The Government are not only alert and committed to ensuring that aviation plays its full part with regard to pollution;
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My noble friend Lord Snape and other noble Lords said that there are absurdities about a policy whereby different solutions are produced in different parts of the country with regard to franchising. However, the solutions are different because the problems are different. The problem with Virgin and the west coast main line was not Virgin’s investment in trains; it was the fact that the track was not providing the framework in which it could offer the service. Therefore, the Government reasonably took upon themselves the recognition that costs had to be borne until the track was up to standard. The east coast main line is entirely different: there is nothing wrong with the track. There is nothing much wrong with GNER either; it just happens to be a subsidiary of a larger company, Sea Containers, which is in severe financial difficulties, and GNER has a real problem in being able to maintain its commitments. The Government’s response to that is straightforward: GNER must keep to its commitments until another franchise can be arrived at, because we owe a duty to the passengers to sustain the service. I reassure my noble friend Lord Snape that they are two very different lines, two different strategies and policies, because they are two very different problems.
I was asked why we could not have vertical integration between track and trains in the Merseyrail area. One can see the obvious attraction of the concept. I have no doubt that if one extrapolates it a long way, one will eventually arrive at British Rail as an integrated system. First, we are a long way from British Rail. Secondly, my noble friend Lord Faulkner was right—he was buttressed by several other noble Lords—in saying that another reorganisation is just what the rail industry does not want. What it needs is capacity to plan against proper objectives and certainties, and reorganisation would not do that job.
The Merseyrail issue is quite straightforward. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, indicated, it takes two to produce a virtual party and one of the players did not want to play. That may be regretted, but one cannot get virtual integration unless both parties see merit in it. Whereas Merseyrail saw great advantages in that position, that was not the case for Network Rail.
I have again been given the greatest sense of foreboding by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw. He always makes me shiver to the bones when he describes what chaos will result from certain of the franchise arrangements that we are making. He said, “We haven’t seen anything yet. You wait until the new Cross Country franchise is established”. I hear what he says. His tales of foreboding may come to pass. I hope that they do not and I am sure that he hopes not, too, because, although of a pessimistic vein, he is
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I have reached the end of my final debate on rail. I have a very sad tale to tell the House: although I do, regrettably, have to yield on the transport brief for a time, I hope to see the concessionary fares Bill through the House. I cannot exactly call it my baby, but it is extremely attractive and I am reluctant to give it up. So, I intend to spend a couple of hours seeing that Bill on to the statute book. Otherwise, this is my last debate on rail. I thank everyone for their good wishes. I have enjoyed our debates enormously, even when I have lost them.
4.50 pm
Lord Chidgey: My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate for their generosity in giving their time and for their preparation. The debate has shown the House at its best. The wide range of knowledge and experience that has been brought to it is phenomenal. I have quickly counted that well over half of noble Lords who have contributed have done so on the basis of their knowledge, their professional expertise or their involvement in the transport industry. That is remarkable. Nevertheless, that does not mean to say that we all agree on everything. What would an industry be if we did?
I wish to make one point before I end, in that there is an issue of capacity, as every noble Lord has said. However, we should not confuse usage of the massive urban transport systems in our capital city with the wider needs and demands of our public transport system. It is one thing to be asked to stand in Tube-style travel in urban networks; it is another to be asked to stand on a service that used to be called InterCity—because that is what it is. Standing on those services for over an hour on crowded trains is, frankly, not acceptable in a modern economy such as ours in the 21st century. We should be able to do better than that—although the high increase in the cost of housing in London means that people are travelling further.
It remains for me to give my thanks also to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for his response to this debate and for the way that he has responded to all the transport debates in this House in his time. I begin to wonder whether he is like a contestant for “Mastermind” and ask what his next specialist subject will be. In the mean time, this debate will continue—clearly—and I close by saying that, perhaps as a mark
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Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
Energy: Nuclear Safety and Waste (EUC Report)
4.52 pm
Lord Renton of Mount Harry rose to move, That this House takes note of the report of the European Union Committee on Managing Nuclear Safety and Waste: The Role of the EU (37th Report, HL Paper 211, Session 2005-06).
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I can hope only that the trains from Victoria station later are not in the same condition as trains elsewhere. I start by stressing to your Lordships that the report that we are considering is not per se about going into detail about what we think in technical terms about managing nuclear safety and waste. It is about the role of the EU in this area and, particularly, whether we think that it is right that the European Council should have a stake in the subject.
I am opening the debate because I had the honour and good luck to be chairman of EU Sub-Committee D for four years when we undertook this study; and I am very pleased that my successor, the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, is also here to take part—as is the noble Lord, Lord Lewis, who is a wise, and was very much the best, scientist on our committee during the years that he and I served on it. I welcome both noble Lords to this debate.
This study of the EU and nuclear issues was one of the most interesting that we undertook. I thank Suzanne Todd, our Clerk throughout this inquiry. She was competent, perceptive and had an extraordinary ability to divine what we wanted to say even when we were not quite certain what that was. She really was a remarkable Clerk and one wishes her great success in her career in the House of Lords. I would also like to thank Professor Richard Clegg, our specialist adviser.
It was so interesting because many of us on the committee were, at the start, really quite uncertain about whether the EU should have a role in nuclear safety and waste disposal. I was certainly in that position. On the one hand, there is the argument that if something goes seriously wrong with a nuclear installation, or in the safe management or transport of high-level radioactive waste, it affects not only one country but the Continent: the Continent of Europe. The enlargement of the EU brought in new members, some of which have older, Russian-designed reactors. There were doubts about the safety of those reactors. The example of Chernobyl from 20 years ago is not forgotten, either in nearby Finland, or in Ireland, which is far more remote. On the other hand, the United Kingdom—and others who generate energy by nuclear means—argue very strongly that they have
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It was, therefore, from the basis of contrary arguments that we approached this report. The draft directives that we looked at and are discussing this evening were brought in by the Commission in January 2003, as we say in paragraph 7 of our report. They were limited to nuclear safety and the safe management of high-level radioactive waste. This came to be known as the “nuclear package”. I was never quite certain why. “Package” is a friendly word; people tend to think that something nice will happen when they get a package. That is not a feeling that most people associate with “nuclear”. It has, however, always been called the nuclear package and that is the phrase we used.
A qualified majority was needed for the two draft directives to get through and become law. The first package was rejected by eight of the countries involved. It was then modified and in September 2004 the EU Commission presented new, modified directives. They were still rejected by seven countries and a qualified majority was not obtained. One of the most interesting things was that France was the country that changed its position between the first and second votes. Although we visited Paris and talked to the French, we never really got a clear view of the reason why they changed their mind. Without wishing to be too cynical, my own view was that, quite simply, the French now lead Europe in the knowledge of how to build new nuclear power plants, and they concluded that worldwide acceptance of their practice, with a European stamp on it, would help them to get orders throughout the world. Therefore, in a very practical manner, they decided that they would be able to increase their nuclear business if there was an EU stamp on it, and that is why they changed their mind.
We travelled to Finland, France and Belgium. In the end, we concluded—in paragraph 118 of our report—that the adoption of the safety directive would not improve nuclear safety standards within the EU. No case had been made for the need to improve safety standards. We were impressed by the International Atomic Energy Agency guidelines and the standards that they set on nuclear energy. These are enforced by peer review and we concluded that this was very effective. The IAEA is now reinforced by a new body, the Western European Nuclear Regulators Association, which is discussed in paragraph 131. It examines, at a technical level, the ability of the European Union to form common approaches to nuclear safety. Again, we were convinced that that was the right approach. We therefore recommended that the Commission and the Council should take full account of the West European Nuclear Regulators Association and that future EU action on nuclear safety should be based on the study work being carried out by WENRA.
We found reaching a decision on the long-term management of high-level radioactive waste a good deal more difficult. The fact is that there are now operations in place for dealing with low-level and
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We felt that the Commission certainly deserved praise for putting forward its ideas and for saying that it was proposing to have a role in the matter, but some witnesses told us that they thought that its approach was too forceful, heavy-handed and prescriptive. That was the attitude of the witnesses from our Government, in particular. Perhaps at this point I may quote, from paragraph 53 of our report, the remarks of Elliot Morley MP, who was then a Minister of State at Defra. He described the Commission’s attitude as,
- “a top-down approach which is basically stipulating solutions without taking into account the different circumstances in different Member States”.
It has to be said that that is not a wholly convincing argument, but, by and large, we were swayed by it. We concluded at paragraph 59:
“Although we do not advocate adoption of the waste Directive as drafted, we do see a role for the Community in providing the impetus for Member States to take action towards the management of high-level waste. This would begin to address the serious issues that affect public opinion”.
Those last two words—“public opinion”—are at the heart of the matter. We were increasingly impressed by the lack of knowledge in general terms throughout the European Union about the pros and cons of nuclear electric generation. I was struck by a Eurobarometer poll held last week, which said that 80 per cent of EU citizens who were questioned were in favour of renewable energy but only 20 per cent were in favour of nuclear power. That stresses the need for better and more information. There simply needs to be greater public acceptance if nuclear is to grow for power generation purposes.
In what I am about to say next, I may differ from the views of other members of the committee that I chaired, and I did not warn them that I was going to say this. Six months have passed since we produced our report and I suspect that it is now out of date. The Council of Ministers, faced with a shortage of oil and gas, worried about Russia and its use of gas supplies for political measures, and greatly concerned about climate change, has now agreed to the EU producing an energy policy. It is surprising that it has not been noticed more, but it will embrace a nuclear generation policy.
Just a week ago, the EU Commission issued as a press release 75 pages dedicated to a nuclear illustrative programme and memorandum. It all came under the general heading, “Energy for a Changing World”. The memorandum is headed “Brussels, 10January” and I shall quote two sentences from it:
“It is for each member to decide whether to use nuclear power. That is the careful agnostic approach of the EU”.
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“The European Commission has proposed the establishment of an EU high level group of national nuclear regulators in order to further develop a common understanding and European rules in the field of nuclear safety and security”.
I have not heard of that before. It was in none of the newspapers. But there it is. The EU Commission, whatever we said in our report, will not give up its interest in nuclear energy. It is surprising that little attention was paid to this aspect in the papers last week. When an integrated energy and climate change package to cut emissions was proposed, there was little talk of the fact that the EU was again banging the nuclear drum. It will continue to put on an agnostic face, but underneath there is a profound belief in both the economics of nuclear energy generation and its necessity to cut greenhouse gas emissions to reach the EU target of 20 per cent reduction in the next 13 years.
That is supported by the Commissioner for Energy Policy, Andris Piebalgs whom we met, and I would be surprised if it is not also supported by the Commissioner for the Environment, Stavros Dimas. I do not blame the EU Commission for being determined to remain this involved. After all it is a continental as well as a national issue. There are possibly great shortages of oil and gas ahead of us, and one can understand why the Commission is moving in the direction that it is doing.
I would be surprised if the EU Commission does not present us with a new version of a nuclear package within the next few years. Then, of course, it will be up to the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, and the EU Committee to decide whether to have yet another investigation into the subject. Perhaps if the Committee so decides, it will draw different conclusions to those reached in the report we are debating this afternoon. There is no doubt that we need open, understandable dialogue in which the European Union should promote transparency, best practice and more knowledge on nuclear energy issues. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House takes note of the report of the European Union Committee on Managing Nuclear Safety and Waste: The Role of the EU (37th Report, HL Paper 211, Session 2005-06).—(Lord Renton of Mount Harry.)
5.07 pm
Lord Sewel: The last speech I made in your Lordships’ House was earlier this week on the conventions of the House. I gladly follow perhaps one of the lesser conventions and thank and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Renton of Mount Harry, not just for chairing our inquiry on nuclear waste and nuclear energy, but for the way in which he presided for four years over Sub-Committee D and left a distinctive and proper mark on the way in which that committee conducted its affairs. I also join the noble Lord in thanking Suzanne Todd, our Clerk, for the work she did. It is no reflection or criticism on the qualities or capabilities of her successor, Mr Preston, to say that I very much regret that she is no longer with us. I shall not go into the reasons.
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Any inquiry into nuclear waste or nuclear energy would have been difficult. An inquiry which links both nuclear waste and nuclear energy—and if you then throw the role of the EU into the mix—is likely not just to double the difficulty but to square it. During our inquiry the noble Lord, Lord Renton, made sure that the whole drift on the inquiry was evidence-led. As a result, many of us—in fact, just about all of us—modified our views as the inquiry proceeded. We ought to say that we learnt something about the issues. We were able to produce a unanimous report due to the way in which the noble Lord led us. I hope it is not as out of date as the noble Lord indicates.
Any debate about nuclear safety and waste will inevitably be placed in the wider context of energy security. That is now, quite properly, a policy issue of the highest priority among the member states of the EU, some of which are facing real difficulties in guaranteeing their citizens security of energy supply as a result of earlier decisions on the sourcing mix. I had better put my cards on the table: individual member states have the responsibility and duty for coming up with policy solutions necessary for energy security for their citizens. That cannot be brushed off on the EU in any way. For the United Kingdom, I suspect that this means more of everything: more emphasis on energy saving, greater levels of recovery from our existing oil and gas fields, more clean coal, more renewables and more nuclear. We shall inevitably face, and are facing, the issues of nuclear waste and safety. I hope that some of those decisions will be made with greater speed in the future.
Nuclear is a contested area; contested within the member states and—more importantly for our inquiry, the terms of our report and this debate—between them. The Governments of the members take radically different views on the future of nuclear, from those who are likely to continue to be heavily dependent on nuclear well into the foreseeable future, to those who have effectively written nuclear out of their plans. Indeed, some find it difficult to make up their minds on a reasonable timescale. Opposing views are held passionately, and political careers have been built on the issue. That is worrying. The very strength and passion of those views makes me hesitant to see a significant interventionist role for EU legislation in either area. I cannot help but worry that opening the door to EU legislation over waste and safety would run the risk that the content of that legislation would be influenced as much by the attitudes of member states to the substantive issue of nuclear power itself as by the more limited considerations of nuclear waste and safety. That is potentially extremely dangerous.
Given my reservations on the role of EU legislation, I am happy with our conclusions on safety at paragraph 118:
“We do not believe adoption of the safety Directive would improve nuclear safety standards within the EU. Witnesses did not provide any evidence of a need to improve safety standards within the EU which currently operate satisfactorily within the IAEA reporting system. Hence the case for the safety Directive is not made”.
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On waste, I am equally happy with our conclusion that:
“Although we do not advocate adoption of the waste Directive as drafted, we do see a role for the Community in providing the impetus for Member States to take action towards the management of high level waste. This would begin to address the serious issues that affect public opinion”.
As we look forward, I emphasise our major conclusion at paragraph 126:
“Furthermore, energy policy choices are a matter of national responsibility and it would not be appropriate for Community legislation to be used to influence this choice”—
in relation to what the noble Lord, Lord Renton of Mount Harry, said about the emerging view of the EU, particularly the Commission, towards nuclear energy and the possibility of a European energy policy with a nuclear component. That is vital. It is a risk that we could not and should not take.
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