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House of Lords
Monday, 29 January 2007.
The House met at half-past two: the LORD SPEAKER on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester.
Unemployment: 16 to 24 Year-olds
Baroness Miller of Hendon asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What conclusions they draw from the report of the Office for National Statistics that there are 37,000 more unemployed 16 to 24 year-olds than there were in May 1997, and that 75 per cent more 18 to 24 year-olds have been out of work for over six months compared with five years ago.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Luton): My Lords, this month’s fall in youth unemployment is welcome and reverses some of the recent rises in unemployment data. There has been a substantial improvement in youth long-term unemployment on both measures since 1997. This is partly because of the New Deal for Young People, which helps the 18 to 24 year-old group.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply, which is contrary to the Office for National Statistics report. As the number of young men and women categorised at NEETs—that is, neither in education, employment nor training—has risen to a record 1.24 million, does the Minister not think that, rather than give an Answer such as he has given, it would be better if the Government withdrew the unwarranted statement in their 2005 election manifesto that,
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I do not recognise the figure of 1.2 million that the noble Baroness gave.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, it was 1.24 million.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I do not recognise that figure either. The NEET population has increased, as have the NEET numbers, but the numbers have increased by less in absolute terms than those relating to the population as a whole. Since May 1997, youth claimant unemployment has fallen by almost a third and six-month-plus youth claimant unemployment has fallen by almost two-thirds. Long-term, 12-months-plus youth claimant unemployment has been virtually eradicated: it is down 88 per cent since May 1997, fully justifying what was in the Labour Party manifesto.
Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, there will always be debate about the precise impact on unemployment of any particular policy or about how money can most usefully be spent. But have not the Government been right to ensure that young people who are in the greatest difficulty in the labour market get structured work experience, training and advice? Does not the New Deal take its place in a continuum of policy, starting with Sure Start and stretching through the Government’s drive to improve literacy and numeracy in schools, the Every Child Matters reforms and the 14-to-19 curriculum reforms, which together address the intractable problem of the unemployability of some young people coherently, sensibly and decently?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. The New Deal has helped more than 1.65 million people into work, including more than 690,000 young people. The New Deal for Young People data show that the number of individual participants to August 2006 was 1.1 million and that, as of May 2006, individuals going into jobs numbered 693,000, of which 85 per cent have sustained employment.
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Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the number of available jobs for people without qualifications is rapidly falling? Many of the young people in the NEET group have no qualifications because they have special educational needs which have not been addressed. What are the Government doing for these young people to ensure that their special educational needs are met and they are able to gain some qualifications and obtain a lasting job?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the Government agree with the noble Baroness that it is important that people have good qualifications to be able to get into sustainable employment. As the record shows, GCSE attainment has steadily improved since 1997, although there is clearly more to do. Between 1997 and 2005, the Government increased investment in FE by about 48 per cent in real terms, and funding for the participation of full-time-equivalent students increased by 49 per cent in cash terms and 23 per cent in real terms. That is what the Government are doing to address those issues. But there are still some challenging issues, particularly for the 16 and 17 year-old cohort.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, can the Minister say how many of these young people are in prison?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I do not have that data, but I shall be happy to write to the noble Countess.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the Minister puts an interesting gloss on this appalling situation. Does he recall that, last July, in an Answer to a Written Question, we were told that nearly 50 per cent of young jobseekers who had left the New Deal for Young People ended up back on benefits within a year? More importantly, the number of 18 to 24 year-olds who have been unemployed for more than six months stands at 153,000, according to the Office for National Statistics. How does the Minister square that with the Prime Minister’s promise in the “Our Nation’s Future” lecture on 5 September that,
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I repeat the figures. On the claimant-count basis for analysing the figures, as at December 2006 there had been a reduction of 87 per cent since 1997 in the number of those unemployed for 12 months or more. That seems very substantial progress in eradicating long-term unemployment among young people.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, did my noble friend, like me, listen with growing disbelief to the supplementary question posed by the noble Baroness,
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Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I find it impossible to disagree with the thrust of my noble friend’s comments. He is absolutely right that the party opposite opposed the New Deal, although the evidence of the benefit that it has brought is clear. As the record shows, unemployment under the Conservative Government twice hit something like 3 million, and the peak among unemployed young people, in 1993, was something like 1.5 million.
Data Protection: Interception of Communications
2.43 pm
Lord Soley asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Further to the Information Commissioner’s report What Price Privacy Now?, whether the individuals who had their communications intercepted have a legal right to be so informed by the relevant news agencies.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Constitutional Affairs (Baroness Ashton of Upholland): My Lords, it is illegal to obtain information through the unauthorised interception of communications. Where organisations process personal data, the Data Protection Act 1998 requires them to act fairly and to notify individuals of the purpose for which data will be used. News organisations may be exempt from this requirement where they are processing data with a view to publication and reasonably believe that publication will be in the public interest.
Lord Soley: My Lords, I am grateful for that Answer. Does not the Information Commissioner’s report, combined with the Motorman case last week, indicate that there is still a serious problem in this respect? Is it not true that the many hundreds, if not thousands, of people who have had their privacy invaded, often for no better reason than keyhole peeping, have a right to an apology from those media groups responsible and possibly a legal right of redress? If individuals are worried about coming forward, as many of them will be, perhaps the PCC could take the lead and order those newspapers to make an apology unless there is a continuing and legitimate—and I mean legitimate—public interest defence.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, noble Lords will know that the Motorman inquiry—a three-year investigation into data protection offences—led to a parallel police investigation. Noble Lords will also know that we are consulting on
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Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, will the Minister and her colleagues in the Government also approach the chairman of the Press Complaints Commission and the code of practice committee of editors who have refused to give any concrete proposal to the Information Commissioner in response to his suggestion that the code of practice ought to be amended to make it clear that without an individual’s consent, it is not acceptable to obtain information about private life by bribery, impersonation, subterfuge or payment? The inaction of the Press Complaints Commission leaves those of us who would support self-regulation with very little armour left.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I have indicated that we are currently consulting. The consultation has just closed, and we will be producing reports on Section 55 of the Data Protection Act and on whether to make it an offence to sell or offer to sell personal data that have been or subsequently are obtained or procured knowingly or recklessly without the consent of the data controller. Within that, the Information Commissioner is looking at a range of different ways in which he can work closely with bodies such as the Press Complaints Commission to ensure that such data are dealt with properly.
Lord Selsdon: My Lords, who owns the information gathered by CCTV cameras? Can the Minister explain who owns that intellectual property?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the way in which CCTV cameras are operated means that the information is contained within them. There is not an issue of ownership, as such. Noble Lords will know that there is always a question about the ownership of imagery. It is clear that information can be gathered only for the purposes for which it has been said to be gathered and anyone has the right to complain about the information gathered or the images that the cameras have.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, will the Minister explain why the Pesticides Safety Directorate has written to its correspondents warning them about intercepted telephone calls? Can she say whether that practice is now common with agencies and government departments?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I do not know whether it has written, but I am sure the noble Countess’s information is correct. It is not common practice to do so, but it is right and proper that where there are concerns about information, data controllers feel able to make sure that they notify people about them.
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Children: Custody
2.48 pm
Baroness Stern asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What changes they have made to the treatment of children in custody since the report by Lord Carlile of Berriew into physical restraint, forcible strip-searching and solitary confinement in custodial institutions for children, published in February 2006.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the implementation of the code of practice on behaviour management relates directly to many of the noble Lord’s recommendations. The Youth Justice Board has been working with establishments on new definitions and data rules concerning physical interventions. It plans to begin using this new framework from April. The Youth Justice Board and the Prison Service have created a joint programme board to review behaviour management issues, including single separation and full searching.
Baroness Stern: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. Does he recall the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, saying in his report that the treatment of these vulnerable children was so bad that it could in any other circumstances result in criminal charges, and that the high level of the use of pain infliction to restrain children was particularly concerning? Does the Minister accept that in the months since the noble Lord’s report came out these restraint methods have continued to be used, more than 5,000 times? How high will that figure have to get before a change of policy will be considered?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I recall the noble Lord’s reference. He also commented that he found many examples of good practice in young offender institutions, secure training centres and so on. Sadly, on occasion, because of operational requirements, physical restraint has to be used on young people in secure accommodation. Regrettable though it is, it is for their safety and that of others that occasionally these techniques have to be used.
Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I declare an eponymous interest in this Question. Why, since the Howard League report was produced, has the entirely unnecessary practice of full strip-searching continued to such an extent that at Huntercombe young offender institution, in the most recent statistical period, there have been no fewer than 1,800 enforced strip-searches? It was quite clear to those who advised me when preparing the report that enforced strip-searching should be carried out only in a very small number of cases, if at all, and that the practice carried out at Huntercombe and elsewhere is unnecessary. Why won’t the Government act on this abuse of the bodies of young men and women?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I understand the passion with which the noble Lord has put his question. The noble Lord, when preparing his report, recognised fully that strip-searching was necessary from time to time to prevent drugs and weapons being
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Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, the report of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, recommended that children should not be placed in prison segregation units. Have the Government accepted his recommendation and instructed prisons to stop holding children in segregation units?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the use of segregation for young offenders held in secure units is obviously problematic. It is not highly desirable, but from time to time, not least when a young person is acting in a dangerous and violent fashion, it is essential to segregate them, for their own safety and security and that of others.
The Lord Bishop of Leicester: My Lords, figures released in October 2006 show that more than 3,350 children and young people were held in the secure estate. It is overwhelmingly clear that any improvements to custodial regimes are extremely difficult to effect with such overcrowding. What do the Government propose to do to ensure that custodial sentences are passed only as a last resort, in line with the United Nations convention?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, custodial sentences are used only as a last resort and when appropriate. Clearly, those judging cases involving young offenders have to consider that carefully. It is regrettable, but some young people commit very serious offences. For those reasons they need to be placed in secure accommodation.
Viscount Bridgeman: My Lords, in his report the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, recommended that policy responsibility for all children, including those in custody, should rest with the Children’s Minister in the Department for Education and Skills. In the light of the lack of progress since the report was published, the recent resignation of the highly respected chairman of the Youth Justice Board, Professor Rod Morgan, and the rumours about restructuring the Home Office, is such a change now under active consideration? If not, why not?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, all these things are subject to review and consideration, regardless of whether the future of the Home Office is under examination. It is regrettable that Mr Morgan decided to resign from his post before his contract expired, but these things happen from time to time.
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Lord Avebury: My Lords, the Minister has already said that he did not accept two of the main recommendations in my noble friend’s report, but will he say whether the Government accept any of the five main recommendations or any of the 107 others in the report? Do we have to go on hearing from the Chief Inspector of Prisons not only about the excessive use of force at Huntercombe—and not solely for the purpose of strip-searches—but about the many other defects in the handling of young people, such as the use of handcuffs?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, many of the recommendations in the report of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, have been accepted by both the Youth Justice Board and the Prison Service. As I understand it, the noble Lord had a fruitful and useful discussion and meeting with my noble friend Lady Scotland precisely on those parts of the report that were of interest. I think that it would be fair to say that the majority of the recommendations in the noble Lord’s report are either in active commission or under active consideration.
Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, will my noble friend comment on the treatment of girls in custody? I understand from a 2006 report by the Chief Inspector of Prisons that girls in some institutions are automatically strip-searched on entry. Will this practice now stop?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am not aware that girls are automatically strip-searched on entry. I will look at that observation and communicate further with the noble Baroness.
Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, in light of the recent decision by the European Court of Human Rights in the Wainwright case, the Minister’s replies will be hard to sustain. What consideration have the Government given to how to meet the outcomes of that case, which suggest that a good deal of our treatment of young people is simply not acceptable under human rights legislation?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I do not entirely agree with the noble Baroness’s assertion, but clearly that case is important and means that, as at all times, we have to actively consider aspects of our policy with regard to the imprisoning of young people in our offender institutions.
Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the inquiry of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. One of our concerns was the use of handcuffs in secure training centres. Does the use of handcuffs still continue and, if so, how many times were they used in 2006?
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