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I recognise that noble Lords are not pressing the Government quite as far as in Committee, but, as I pointed out then, local authorities have the discretion to offer travel concessions on other forms of public transport, and the Bill preserves that flexibility.
As I also said in Committee, the Government have no plans to extend the statutory minimum concession to other forms of transport. There would be costs involved, and any extension would have to be fully funded, as the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, recognised. Estimating just how much it might cost to extend the concession to other modes is difficult, and we have not done that work yet, but clearly we are talking about significant sums. As the noble Lord has heard, we reckon that extending the scheme to rail would cost about £250 million a year. It might cost about £15 million to extend the scheme to trams.
The Government have already committed to spending £1 billion on concessionary travel to improve the mobility and well-being of older and disabled people. Until we have worked that through and got the system in place, it would be injudicious to seek to extend the forms of eligible travel. Older and disabled people already qualify for one-third off most
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If the Secretary of State wanted to extend the national concession to other modes of public transport, he has the ability, under Part 2 of the Transport Act, to do so. At this stage, though, we are merely considering whether the resources are available for the extension, and it is only right that, until we have worked through this particular concession, we should postpone consideration of other modes of travel. The Bill will not inhibit that consideration when it is eventually passed.
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. It is not unexpected, given our debate in Committee. We all support the Bill in principle, and it will probably evolve as time goes on. With a small amount of money, some categories covered by the legislation could be improved. I know that money is never available, but it might have been wise to have added a few more millions to this and taken them off something else—easier to say than do, I know—to make this scheme acceptable to everyone. However, I heard what the Minister said, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Low of Dalston moved Amendment No. 4:
(a) is blind or partially sighted, (b) is profoundly or severely deaf, (c) is without speech, (d) has a disability, or has suffered an injury, which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his ability to walk, (e) does not have arms or has long-term loss of the use of both arms, (f) has a learning disability, that is, a state of arrested or incomplete development of mind which includes significant impairment of intelligence and social functioning, (g) would be defined as having a mental impairment which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his ability to carry out day-to-day activities in accordance with section 1 of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 as amended, or (h) would, if he applied for the grant of a licence to drive a motor vehicle under Part III of the Road Traffic Act 1988, have his application refused pursuant to section 92 of that Act otherwise than on the ground of persistent misuse of drugs or alcohol.”The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 4 would modify and place in the Bill the definition of a disabled person in the Transport Act 2000 which determines eligibility for concessionary bus travel to ensure that those with mental health problems who would have difficulty accessing public
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I welcome the assurances given by the Bill team that the definitions of disabled people for the purposes of concessionary travel in Section 146 of the Transport Act 2000 and Section 240(5) of the Greater London Authority Act 1999 will be unchanged by the Bill. However, coverage of people with mental health difficulties remains a problem. I am reintroducing the amendment to ensure that people with mental health problems are explicitly covered in the Bill.
Eligibility for concessionary fares can do much to aid an individual’s chance of recovery and reintegration into society. Severe mental ill health often leads to social and physical isolation, discrimination and an inability to play a full part in economic and community life. Access to community centres, drop-in therapeutic communities, counselling or self-help groups can greatly aid recovery, but many service users rely on public transport. Even where they still hold a driving licence, poverty and a fluctuating health condition may make driving impossible. The ability to travel to education centres to take up job opportunities and access community health and social care facilities is vital. Inability to access these can lead to serious consequences for the individual.
Currently, most of those with mental health problems who qualify for concessionary fares do so by virtue of the fact that they would, if they applied, be refused a driving licence under Part 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, pursuant to Section 92. That section refers to five categories of people who would be refused a driving licence, the second of which refers to people with a severe mental disorder. It is under this provision that people with mental health problems may become entitled to concessionary fares.
I believe that it would conduce to clarity to insert that provision in the Bill. The Minister rejected that suggestion in Committee, but I think he may have been under the misapprehension that it was intended to extend the scope of the legislation. That was not the intention. In moving her amendment in Committee, the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, merely wished to consolidate diverse existing provisions in one place. It would be helpful to have this consolidating amendment in the Bill.
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By importing paragraph (h) into this Bill from the Road Traffic Act 1988, we do not intend to extend the scope of concessionary travel legislation. Since the debate in Grand Committee, the Minister has supplied information estimating the cost of extending concessionary travel to carers at £9 million. It is possible, due to uncertainties surrounding the precise scope and impact of particular definitions in legislation, that there might be a marginal extension of coverage, but it is my contention that it would be entirely marginal. The Minister’s estimate of the cost of extending the provision to carers is less than £10 million, which—although it is a substantial sum to you and me, in terms of the
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However, if the amendment in this form is not acceptable to the Minister, I can think of other ways in which to achieve a similar effect, so perhaps it might be possible to have discussions before Third Reading to find a mutually agreed way forward. Alternatively, we can continue the discussion at Third Reading itself, but it would be in every way more profitable if we could have discussions outside the Chamber before we got to that stage. I beg to move.
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, my name is also on this amendment. I particularly wanted to speak about the definition and, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, said, the clarity in that regard. My noble friend Lady Hanham, who cannot be here today, was concerned about the wording in the Bill and the fact that mental disabilities might not seem to be covered. We do not want to increase the scope of the Bill, as some amendments to this part of the Bill would do; we simply want to achieve a clearer definition. I hope that the Minister might be able to give us something on that and improve the wording.
On carers, I hope that the Minister will take up the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Low, on how we might cover some of those people even without any extra costs. I look forward to the Minister’s reply with interest.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Low, for moving the amendment. I have considerable sympathy with his case. Although I cannot accept this amendment as it stands, we have an intervening period before Third Reading and I am only too willing to meet him and see whether we can get a meeting of minds on how to tackle the problem that is rather more to his advantage than he may see in my straightforward rejection of his amendment. I shall identify some of the difficulties that we have to overcome, some of which I identified in Committee.
The noble Lord said that he thought that Amendment No. 4 was an exercise in consolidation, but we will have to beg to differ on that. To the department, paragraph (g) looks like more than consolidation; it looks like the introduction into the Bill of an extra and quite significant concept. I hear what he says about aspects of the marginal costs involved. We will have to discuss those costs more extensively. I am not sure that they are quite as marginal as he suggests.
However, the amendment breaks new ground. If it were carried, the implications for this legislation and the Government would be considerable. We accept exactly what the noble Lord says as a main principle—that access to transport has an important part to play in reducing social exclusion. This is why we are extending the geographical scope of the statutory minimum concession to guarantee that older people and the groups of disabled people provided for in the Transport Act 2000 and the Greater London Authority Act 1999
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The Bill is not about extending the concession to other groups of people by changing current definitions. If we want to change those definitions, we can do so by order under the Transport Act 2000 powers. If local authorities want to do so, they have a discretion under the Transport Act 1985 to offer travel concessions to groups other than those specified in present legislation. However, as I stated in Committee, we are not yet in a position to commit further funding to concessionary travel. The Bill and existing provisions will cost £1 billion per year in statutory concessionary travel to improve the mobility of older and disabled people. That is a very substantial spending commitment. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Low, will in all fairness recognise the progress which has been made in extending this provision to the most vulnerable in our society.
Estimating how much it might cost to extend the concession to people with a mental impairment is very difficult as it depends very much on the exact definition. When one is aware of the extensiveness of diagnosable mental health problems in our population, one recognises that a very large number of people might be covered by the provision. We are talking about significant numbers. Our initial estimate is that it might cost as much as £50 million a year, but we cannot be definitive about that figure. It could be more. It is not just a question of resources. Practical and administrative issues would have to be considered and resolved before we made such an extension. We would need to set up a robust and fair system for assessing eligibility against the definition of mental impairment. That is no straightforward matter.
It is also important that all those with an interest and expertise in the area are consulted before we legislate in those terms. Changing the definition of disabled person in the Bill, which is what the amendment would do, is somewhat premature because we have not been involved in such consultations, as that was not part of our intent with this legislation. We must focus on the task in hand—the delivery of the new national bus concession. A lot of work has been done to deliver this major improvement, which will benefit many disabled people without having to implement a further change on which they have not been consulted.
I recognise the strength of the advocacy of the noble Lord, Lord Low. I reiterate that I am prepared to meet before Third Reading with him, the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, if he would like to be involved, and any other noble Lords interested in the matter. However, I hasten to add that Third Reading is not that far away. I am certainly prepared to discuss the matter further, but I should like the noble Lord to reflect on what I have said today and what we said in Committee and recognise that there are real difficulties for the Government in accepting an amendment of this kind. I hope that he will reflect on the matter and withdraw the amendment today. Perhaps we can advance the matter further in discussion when this stage is completed.
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Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his full and careful reply. He replied in considerable detail. As he suggested, I will read carefully what he said and reflect on it. However, I am grateful to him for being flexible and forthcoming, and for indicating that he would be willing to have further discussions about the amendment, whatever his reservations about it. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Low of Dalston moved Amendment No. 5:
“(4A) If a disabled person requires the assistance of a companion to travel on journeys on public transport services, the travel concession authority in England outside London must mark that clearly on the permit.
(4B) Where a person whose current statutory travel concession permit is marked in accordance with subsection (4A) is entitled under this section to a waiver of the fare for a journey, one companion travelling on the journey with the person (and nominated by the person as the person’s companion for that journey) is also entitled to a waiver of the fare for the journey.
(4C) The Secretary of State shall issue guidance to travel concession authorities in England to which they must have regard in determining for subsection (4B) whether a disabled person needs a companion in order to travel.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the amendment would require travel concession authorities outside London to issue permits for free travel for companions who travel with a disabled person who needs a companion because of their impairment. Amendment No. 19 would introduce a similar provision for London.
Not all disabled people are able to access mainstream public transport on their own. Concessions should be available to allow a companion to travel free of charge where this is necessary to enable a disabled person to access public transport. The amendment is designed to enable the principal purposes of the Bill—namely, to extend concessionary travel to disabled people—to work effectively. If disabled people cannot access public transport on their own and need a companion to enable them to do so—for example, to get on a bus—it is clearly not possible for them to avail themselves of the concession for which the Bill legislates unless they have the services of a companion. If taking a companion with them is not to increase the cost of the journey, it follows as night follows day that it is necessary for the companion to be able to travel free of charge.
Perhaps my remarks about the Minister’s information regarding the cost of extending the concession to carers would be of even more relevance to this amendment. As I argued on the previous amendment, the Minister’s costings appeared to be marginal to the total expenditure under the Bill. Most of the companions to whom the amendment relates would fall into the category of carers. I am therefore proposing simply a marginal amendment to the Bill.
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A concession of this kind, for companions to travel free of charge, is already provided for under the Welsh scheme. There is no good reason why the English scheme should be inferior. It is invidious that distinctions of this kind should operate in different parts of the United Kingdom.
It is not only people with physical or sensory disabilities who are affected in this way; there are particular issues also for people with phobias or who experience high levels of anxiety or disorientation in busy or unfamiliar places. Those people, too, may need someone with them for support.
Concessions should therefore be available to allow a companion to travel free of charge where this is necessary to enable a disabled person to access mainstream public transport. As I said, this extension is already provided for under the Welsh scheme. The amendment is based on similar legislation which already exists in Wales. I ask that the provision be imported into the English scheme as well. I beg to move.
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Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, again, I support the noble Lord, Lord Low, on his amendment. The Minister has said several times today that we are asking him to spend £1 billion a year on this scheme. It seems that we could rejig this provision to cover the most vulnerable and deserving of discretionary free transport.
The Minister said several times that local authorities have that discretion. We will talk about the funding of local authorities in a little while. I suspect that if we have the funding of local authorities right they might want to provide some discretionary transport, but we shall talk about that later. There might be some room at the edges to facilitate this amendment which, I repeat, would help the most vulnerable and needy.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords. I do not have a great deal to add to my reservations on the previous amendment. The Bill is about expanding the geographical scope of concessionary travel, not adding new eligible groups, although I recognise the force of the presentation of the noble Lord, Lord Low.
The noble Lord is right that this is a more marginal cost than the previous amendment, but our estimate amounted to about £10 million a year for carers. The term “companion” could of course be interpreted very widely, and our estimate of £10 million was in the context of a rather narrower concept of carer than that, heightening the importance of getting definitions right. We would also have to be fair about applications, with a robust system for assessing whether a disabled person required the assistance of a companion to travel on public transport services—otherwise, it could be wide open to extravagant claims. Who would qualify as an accompanying carer—a nominated person as specified on their pass, or a considerate and helpful fellow passenger? We would have to answer a lot of questions before we had a robust scheme in place. The noble Lord says that it will not cost too much. These matters never cost a great deal, although millions are millions.
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The noble Lord will recognise that it is unfair to say that Wales already has this. One of the sublime beauties of devolution is that countries will move at a different pace. If we say that devolution develops a fast engine at the front and everybody just hooks their wagon to it, that would reduce a great deal of our decision-making; we would just be following what has been done elsewhere, sometimes at quite considerable cost. I will not have that, particularly as local authorities have the power to be more extensive in their definitions. If they choose to do so, it would not then be fair to say that the whole nation must automatically follow suit. We have circumscribed these matters with relative powers by legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Low, will therefore recognise that the Bill generates substantial costs in extending concessionary travel across England. England is bound to be much more expensive than Wales because of its population and area. By the same token, it is much more expensive to do this in Scotland. There are large costs involved in this Bill, and there are therefore bound to be reservations about extending categories when the Bill is largely concerned with extending the concession to England.
I hear what the noble Lord has said. I am certainly prepared to discuss this matter with him further—I cannot imagine that I would talk with him about the previous issue without him putting the case for this matter at some stage. I shall be prepared for that eventuality, and we shall see how those discussions work out. As it stands, however, I have some difficulty with the amendment, and hope that the noble Lord will at least withdraw it for today.
Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, in view of the Minister’s clear and careful presentation of the Government’s views on the amendment, I am prepared to withdraw it for today. As he said, there will be an opportunity at Third Reading, however soon it comes, for us to debate the scope of the amendment and whether there might be some way of accommodating it, at least in part. I am grateful to the Minister for his offer in that regard and I would be happy to have discussions with him before pressing the amendment, which I am happy to withdraw today. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
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