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Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Bruce-Lockhart, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Caithness, E.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
14 Mar 2007 : Column 754
Carrington, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chelmsford, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Clyde, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Corston, B.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Crisp, L.
Croham, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dear, L.
Deech, B.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dundee, E.
Dunn, B.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L. [Teller]
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goodlad, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grantchester, L.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Grocott, L.
Habgood, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Inge, L.
Inglewood, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Ewelme, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Kalms, L.
Kerr of Kinlochard, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kirkham, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Levene of Portsoken, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
Luce, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar, C.
Marland, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
14 Mar 2007 : Column 755
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Moonie, L.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moran, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morrow, L.
Moser, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L. [Teller]
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Paisley of St George's, B.
Palmer, L.
Palumbo, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel, L.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prashar, B.
Prosser, B.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Ramsbotham, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rogan, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandwich, E.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheikh, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Southwell and Nottingham, Bp.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Steinberg, L.
Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Tebbit, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Tombs, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trimble, L.
Trumpington, B.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turnbull, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Ullswater, V.
Varley, L.
Verma, B.
Vinson, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Waverley, V.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
York, Abp.
Young of Old Scone, B.
Resolved in the negative, and Motion disagreed to accordingly.
5.07 pm
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York would like
14 Mar 2007 : Column 756
I beg to move that this House is of the opinion that a reformed House of Lords should be fully elected.
Moved, That this House is of the opinion that a reformed House of Lords should be fully elected.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)
On Question, Whether the said Motion shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 122; Not-Contents, 326.
Addington, L.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President.]
Andrews, B.
Avebury, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boyd of Duncansby, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burnett, L.
Burns, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Chandos, V.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Courtown, E.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Erroll, E.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Gale, B. [Teller]
Garden, L.
Giddens, L.
Goodhart, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Haskel, L.
Hattersley, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Hollick, L.
Hooper, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jones, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Kerr of Kinlochard, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Maxton, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Moynihan, L.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Owen, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quin, B.
Radice, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
14 Mar 2007 : Column 757
Roper, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tope, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tyler, L.
Uddin, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adebowale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Bach, L.
Bagri, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Barnett, L.
Bell, L.
Best, L.
Biffen, L.
Bilimoria, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Birt, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bowness, L.
Boyce, L.
Bradley, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bramall, L.
Brennan, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Broers, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Bruce-Lockhart, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Byford, B.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chelmsford, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Clyde, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corston, B.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Crisp, L.
Croham, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dear, L.
Dearing, L.
Deech, B.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dundee, E.
Dunn, B.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Emerton, B.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodlad, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goschen, V.
Gould of Potternewton, B. [Teller]
Grantchester, L.
14 Mar 2007 : Column 758
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Grocott, L.
Habgood, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Inge, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Ewelme, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Kalms, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kirkham, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Leitch, L.
Levene of Portsoken, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
Luce, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar, C.
Marland, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Meacher, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moran, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morrow, L.
Moser, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L. [Teller]
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Paisley of St George's, B.
Palmer, L.
Palumbo, L.
Parekh, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Patel, L.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prashar, B.
Prosser, B.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Ramsbotham, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Rees of Ludlow, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rochester, Bp.
Rogan, L.
Rosser, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandwich, E.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheikh, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
14 Mar 2007 : Column 759
Soley, L.
Southwell and Nottingham, Bp.
Steinberg, L.
Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Tombs, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trimble, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turnbull, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Turner of Ecchinswell, L.
Ullswater, V.
Varley, L.
Verma, B.
Vinson, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Waverley, V.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
York, Abp.
Young of Old Scone, B.
Resolved in the negative, and Motion disagreed to accordingly.
5.24 pm
Lord Trefgarne had given notice of his intention to move that this House is of the opinion that there should be no change to the current composition of the House of Lords.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall not move the Motion.
Serious Crime Bill [HL]
5.25 pm
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.]
Clause 4 [Involvement in serious crime: supplementary]:
Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 42:
The noble Baroness said: I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 43, 45 and 46. They probe the relevance of a person’s mental state to the ability of a
14 Mar 2007 : Column 760
It is not made clear in the Explanatory Notes.
Clause 4 appears to treat those with mental incapacity or mental ill health inappropriately. It supplements Clauses 2 and 3 and contains further provisions for a situation where a third party is accused of facilitating the commission of a serious crime by another person—in some circumstances, even where that offence is not committed.
The Committee will recall that the facilitator may find himself—despite Jack Straw’s announcement last week, I shall continue to refer to “himself” to save the time of the Committee—made the subject of a serious crime prevention order that can seriously constrain his professional and personal life.
Clause 4(2) provides for the occasions when a person is accused of facilitating a serious crime that is committed, whereas subsection (3) relates to occasions when the respondent conducts himself in a way that is likely to facilitate the commission of a serious offence even when it is not then committed. Subsections (2) and (3) appear at first reading to give respite to a third party who is carrying on an honest business or other activity and does not intend to facilitate serious crime. On the Bill’s first day in Committee, the Minister was keen to assure the Committee that innocent third parties should not in any way face difficulties as a result of the operation of Part 1.
The clause requires the court to ignore any act that the respondent or defendant—whatever one wants to call them—can show was reasonable in the circumstances. As ever, I would much prefer to avoid the adoption of the reverse burden of proof, which can be objectionable. It looks as though worse is to come, because both subsections (2) and (3) are subjected to the further requirement that the court must ignore the intentions and other aspects of the mental state of the respondent at the time of the act in question—not “may”, but “must”, ignore those other aspects.
On the first day in Committee, we debated at length the question of intent. Although I am still uneasy about the Government’s position, I have read Hansard since then and I am prepared to review my initial scepticism. There may be some need for amendment and improvement; I am looking closely at that. The problem is that the injunction in Clause 4, that the court must ignore the person’s mental state, does appear extraordinary. The Explanatory Notes, at paragraph 26, explicitly state:
“This means that it does not matter if the respondent did not, for example, intend to facilitate the commission of a serious offence, or had no knowledge that he was conducting himself in a way that was likely to facilitate serious crime”.
It would appear that, as a consequence, the court would be required to ignore a person’s mental health or mental incapacity; otherwise what does “mental state” mean? I do not believe that the Government's intention would be to treat those with mental ill health or mental incapacity in that way. If it is the
14 Mar 2007 : Column 761
5.30 pm
Additionally, do the Government intend that this provision could or would prevent the court taking into account the fact that a person had been subject to duress; so there was no question of mental incapacity or mental ill health, but perhaps they had been subject to duress and were in a mental state of fear when they conducted themselves in a way that the Government believe is enough to make them a likely subject for a serious crime prevention order? I ask the question against the background that the Court of Appeal recently made decisions in another field, immigration and asylum law, regarding the impact of someone being in a state of fear. I would be interested to see how that will impact on the provisions in this clause.
On the point about “mental state” as a term in this clause, can the Minister tell us what other precedent there is for statute requiring a court to ignore a person's mental state? On the technicalities of my amendments, Amendments Nos. 42 and 45 simply remove paragraph (b) entirely from subsections (2) and (3) and the other two amendments remove the references to,
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): I should point out that if this amendment is agreed to I will not be able to call Amendment No. 43.
Lord Dholakia: I shall be very brief. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that a person's mental state can be taken into account by a court when a serious crime prevention order is made. We support it. However, I would also like to hear the Minister’s reasoning on whether such an amendment could be taken on board.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, for their helpful indications on how they propose to deal with this matter. Before dealing with the specific amendments, it may be helpful if I explain why we have decided to deal with the mental health element and the mental element as we have. That may elucidate the position in a way which I hope the noble Baroness and the noble Lord will find helpful.
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