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The church campaign began with Archbishop Peter Smith, the Catholic Archbishop of Cardiff, announcing that it was the launch of the biggest political campaign by the church in its modern history. I was flattered that a small Bill that I had introduced should require such a campaign, given that modern history encompasses a number of wars, famine, poverty and a number of other very important issues. The campaign went on in an aggressive, emotional way. It was often misleading, it often relied on anecdote rather than careful research, and it was frequently plain scaremongering.
Time does not permit me to go into the details but typical was an article in The Catholic Times on 2 April 2006, by a Father Francis Marsden, headed, “Legalising Euthanasia Turns Carers into Killers”. The reverend father thoughtfully attached to that article a photograph of 24 children who were murdered by the Nazis. Self-evidently, that had nothing to do with the Bill; it was, in my view, a disgrace and obscene.
The faith groups’ campaign was a great victory, as the Bill was defeated at Second Reading by the breach of a long-standing tradition never to oppose a Private Member’s Bill at Second Reading and by the ignoring
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The outcome was that a Bill supported by 80 per cent of the public was defeated by a campaign orchestrated by the churches. I do not suggest for a moment that the churches should not strongly express their views on issues in which they believe, nor that they should not campaign on those issues, but one would expect that a campaign run by the churches would be a model of fairness that all other campaigners could follow.
The ultimate rejection of the Bill raised two questions. The first is: who do the church leaders represent on this issue? Research showed that 80 per cent of Catholics and 80 per cent of Protestants would have been in favour of the Bill. The second question is whether it is right that church leaders should mount a campaign that was not even supported by their own laity, with the intention of imposing their beliefs on the majority of the population who do not share those beliefs.
1.20 pm
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, I was interested in the remarks of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York about Latchmere House. For a period of my parliamentary life, I represented the Prison Officers’ Association so I know the place well. The illustration he used about those who were of no religion being given an alternative task reminds me of when I joined the Royal Marines in 1943. Very early on, I was asked for my religion. I became an OD—a member of the other denominations—because that meant I was excused church services. That served me well during that period.
This kind of debate is valuable for many people—believers and non-believers—because it is being held in a calm atmosphere with the utmost tolerance and respect shown for other views. People have been allowed to say exactly what they want—nothing extreme or too condemnatory. I listened to every speech and, whatever the point of view of the speaker, I was able to agree and disagree with something the speaker said. It has been therapeutic. I am a member of the British Humanist Association, and I heard discrimination against those who support my views that I had not appreciated. That is not to say that they are not correct because, of course, I accept the integrity of the speakers.
I have always enjoyed carol singing, religious services and “Songs of Praise”. On Sunday, I went to an 800 year-old church in Welwyn, Hertfordshire, for the baptism of a lovely little boy called Leo. I was there two years ago for the baptism of his elder brother, Toby. I enjoyed the service enormously. The church was packed full. The priest and the people in charge were very kind.
I speak as a socialist and someone who believes in the brotherhood of man and in tolerance and fair play. There is no religion in the world, including Christianity, that should not hang its head in shame at the acts of its followers at some time or other. However, we are living in a period when we ought to respect each other.
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The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, whom I respect very much, said that everyone must have faith. I envy people who have faith because for them it is powerful, personal and precious. I have never been able to embrace that. My faith is in the human spirit and the ability of ordinary people to control their affairs. I do not besmirch or belittle people who think differently. Society needs an examination of the ways in which we can work more closely together. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Harrison on bringing this matter to the attention of this House. Those of us here today know from the media that there is some disquiet about people like me who do not believe in religion but who are religious about respecting the views of others. The Minister would do this House and the country a power of good if she were able to say that by some means or other the exclusion or non-inclusion of those who share my views would be looked at with respect. This debate has done a great service.
I would like to have said a lot more, but I cannot at this time. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, who has my respect, spoke powerfully. He used the word “contempt”. As far as I am concerned, that has no place in a debate of this kind. If the Minister can help us by saying something about her intentions about a consultation that will be all-embracing and will cover people with no religious views, as well as those who have them in the conduct of affairs in this society we will be very well served.
1.25 pm
Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I cannot wind up this debate on behalf of these Benches but as an independent-minded person. If there were a party Whip on today, we would all be very embarrassed. We appreciate the opportunity to discuss this. Usually, I am one of three Methodist ministers in this House facing 26 Bishops; we feel totally overwhelmed. However, today, I seem to be facing serried ranks of members of the British Humanist Association. Hearing what they had to say makes us think. I have the highest regard for the noble Lord, Lord Harrison. I can call him a fellow traveller because he is on the same train as me every Monday morning. I am sure it would even be right to call him a friend. He has often spoken in this House of the need to preserve various church buildings and put them to wider use. That is right, but it is already happening. I come from a small Methodist circuit in north Wales. I know of one church that has a nursery class three times a week and a most unreligious bingo on Thursday night, so it meets the community. I know of another small church that has a music appreciation society, a mothers’ union, an art class and all sorts of other things to meet the needs of the local community. Another church has a Welsh language class and meets the needs of the community in other ways. Churches have opened their doors and meet many needs.
In 1993, there were floods in Llandudno that made 4,000 people homeless. The doors of the churches were open and they met a very real need. On 3 May, thousands of church halls will be used as polling
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The Friends’ Ambulance Unit has given tremendous help and is still there. The Religious Society of Friends meets the needs of the people. For some reason, the Salvation Army and the Church of Scotland have been criticised today. We are told that 2,000 people are employed by the Church of Scotland in social welfare work. Who would be doing that job if the Church of Scotland was not? Who would be meeting the needs of people if the Salvation Army was not? We can always say that it is not doing it properly and accuse it in different ways, but it is meeting the need in the best way that it can.
I have a link with the needs of AIDS orphans at the Watoto children’s village in Kampala in Africa. If non-believers want to help there that is wonderful, but the idea was sparked off by people with a faith vision. Without that faith vision, tens of thousands of children would not have survived today. If noble Lords criticise, they should please try to give us another alternative.
People of all faiths and of no faith play an essential part in society, and their compassion, whatever their belief, is always appreciated. When there is need you do not ask, “Are you this or that denomination? Do you believe in this or that way?”. We ask, “What is your need?”. Perhaps it is not what we do, but our beliefs themselves—our faith—that is the threat.
The other morning I went to the Imperial War Museum. I wanted to see the Holocaust exhibition. I also saw it in Yad Vashem in Israel. You can see that for nearly 2,000 years the Jewish people were homeless and persecuted. The pogroms were devastating and culminated in what Hitler did in the Holocaust when 6 million Jewish people were exterminated. Yet they went back to their country. What kept them in that hope? It was their faith—their religious tradition. That is why they survived.
Therefore, we must say that faith, even though all might not share it, keeps society and people going. In the UK, are we not increasingly living more at ease with one another? It is wonderful to speak to people from different faiths and traditions. This sounds awful but, speaking of secular people, some of my best friends do not believe, but such people are some of the finest people—as has already been said this afternoon—that I know.
Let us admit it—this has already been mentioned—some terrible things have happened in the name of every religion. As people try to exercise power, they express their greed. Sometimes people use religion as a label, when something is more tribal than faith. There is no depth of faith. Trouble begins with this superficial religion. At the heart of every religion
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To have faith is a tremendous bonus in life. Dr Leslie Weatherhead, who has sadly left us, was one of the great ministers of his time. He said that when reason ends you need a leap of faith. I suggest, even to the humanists here, that when reason ends—when you cannot logically discuss your position—is there not a leap of faith that you also have to take, in whatever direction that might be? All of us need this invisible means of support to hold us in the more difficult times. If you can survive in the more difficult times without that faith, I envy you. Others find it very difficult to do so.
Finally, recent votes in your Lordships’ House refused to discriminate against folk because of their sexual orientation. I know from many noble Lords, on all sides of the House, that this caused uncertainty and heart-searching. But we refused any form of discrimination. I agree with that. People are people. They have depths, wits and different attributes. We must accept them as they are. Every one of us needs to stand up not only for our own principles, but to respect those principles that spur on other people. We might disagree with views and beliefs, but we will defend to the very end other people’s right to hold them.
1.34 pm
Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, for initiating this debate. I declare an interest. I am a communicant member of the Church of England. I am on the electoral roll of St Mawes church, in Cornwall, and of St Peter’s Eaton Square, in London, and an oblate of the Community of St Mary the Virgin in Wantage. I had great sympathy with my noble friend Lady Flather when she spoke about early meditation in her faith. At the school I went to, St Mary’s Wantage, we learnt to meditate from the age of seven. It was from that early age that I planned how I would lead our hockey team to greatness.
As a member of a Christian community that continues in so many parts of the world to suffer discrimination and persecution for its faith, I cannot help but be saddened if the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, and others feel lessened or harmed by the role of Christianity in our society. It is no part of my belief or of the church’s to deny him his freedom of conscience or his ability to live by that conscience. Sadly, it sometimes, and increasingly, seems to some of us, as was so powerfully stated by the cardinal archbishop lately, that those of us with faith feel pushed to the outskirts of society and find our space, values and beliefs that are the very core of our daily life being infringed and belittled.
No one would disagree with the belief of the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, that in a democratic state a person’s lack of religion should not lead to any kind
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Religion has played a great part in the evolution of education, so much so that in Britain, when the state moved to compulsory education, it decided to enter into a partnership with the Christian churches—a partnership which still exists. Even in this so-called secular age, when only a minority attend churches, faith schools still face very heavy demand for places. The modern state has tried to meet the position of those who profess no religion by allowing them to withdraw their children from religious assemblies. It is open to non-religious people to raise money and to set up schools of their own. Of course it might mean that their children have to travel long distances. That is very often so for religious parents who wish their children to attend a school of their choice.
Here I admit to having had a conversation with the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, before the debate began to ask him quite what he had in mind. He told me the story of his little girl wanting to go to school with her friends, yet the local school was the Church of England state school. The noble Lord had to try to find another school that was not a Church of England state school. I was most touched by the love of a daddy who, in the end, gave in to his little girl wanting to be at school with her friends. I find most heartening this wonderful picture of the noble Lord’s little girl with all her little Christian friends at school. I hope that she will come home and have lovely words to say to him, and that he will think more kindly of us.
Those who profess no religion have not yet evolved a common ritual and philosophy that appeals to the mass of the population. Perhaps that is why they have not yet set up any schools. Where are the humanist schools? I wonder how many people would attend them. Maybe now that this little group has been set up in the Houses of Parliament, it may work towards that end.
The trouble is that humanism can seem too intellectual or remote. There is also disagreement about the prevailing non-religious philosophy, stretching from Nietzsche’s superman to a vague humanism. By contrast, although religious adherence seems small, surveys show that around 70 per cent of people profess a belief in God. Many people’s morality is still tied to the traditional religious patterns.
We should strive, as my noble friend Lady Carnegy described so graciously, to live and let live, not to destroy the structures that have served us so well; to listen to each other, as we have here today. I believe that that will enable us to continue to live and evolve together—60 million of us in these tiny, tolerant Christian islands, with more trying to join us in their thousands day after day.
For me, faith is not constructive or oppressive; it is liberating and empowering. I believe that the structures of religion are valuable to society today, even if the spiritual content is not embraced by all.
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I ask the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, to reflect how far our whole polity, our whole sense of what we are as a nation, our traditions of tolerance and many of the principles of care for the weak, the excluded and the outsider and of love of our neighbours are derived from the unique nature of the Church of England. Should we need any reminder of that as we reflect, as we did so recently, on the achievement of a great Christian Conservative, William Wilberforce, in the abolition of the slave trade? It is in the spirit of that unique and tolerant Anglican tradition that dissent, as here today, is accommodated as a challenge, not crushed in the dust, a challenge that means that we all have freedom to speak here, in which freedom the noble Lord spoke with such resonance.
To those of us with faith, there seems no shortage of space in modern society for those who scorn faith. Let us not build vain citadels to separate believers and non-believers. The word I believe in is the word of love. Surely, in the great mystery of life, that spirit can include, enrich and ennoble us all.
The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, spoke passionately about his disappointment in his Government and today challenged the Minister to disestablish the Church of England. We on these Benches will listen most carefully to the Minister's reply.
1.42 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Andrews): My Lords, I welcome this opportunity to join the debate and congratulate my noble friend Lord Harrison on the opportunity that he has created for a debate which has been unusually personal, typically profound but also provocative. It has been a very welcome opportunity and I think that the response from around the House will have pleased him and those noble Lords who embrace a humanist and secularist point of view. It has been an unusual debate and it has been extremely rich and generous.
My noble friend made a robust speech. I take some comfort from the fact that in the first conversation that I had with him about the debate he said, “You’re going to have an extremely hard job summing up this debate”. He was absolutely right. I did not know that he was going to challenge me to disestablish the Church of England at the same time. That is something that I shall take back to the department. It is also quite difficult to present a government view on some of the issues raised, not least by my noble friend Lady Massey. I must say that we have no position on some of what she said.
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It is also extremely challenging, in a debate that has ranged from Wittgenstein to our current philosopher, Roy Hattersley, to address some of the issues. I do not think that I shall rise to the occasion. As for the hazards of meditation, I can say only that in the silence of a Quaker meeting, I find myself firmly fixed on the object in hand with no thought of how to advance my career.
This is a timely debate for many reasons, as the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, said, because the issues of faith and the rule of law have recently been very much in the public mind. In a society that is multi-faith, multi-ethnic and multi-cultural, this tiny, tolerant island of which the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, spoke, it is quite right that we should not avoid or deny the need to have such a debate. The church and faith groups do not want to avoid having such a debate. The Archbishop of Canterbury, in a recent lecture on secularism and faith, spoke about the shared recognition of law, which provides for a basic trust that all voices are being heard in the process of brokering harmony. We have heard all those different voices today, which have ranged from the Lords Spiritual to the voices of secularism and humanism. We have heard about the search for harmony.
The Government must aim to let all voices be heard with equal respect, not least through the strengthening of the law to promote greater respect and social cohesion in all ways in our communities. Sometimes that debate takes place in a highly charged atmosphere. It is our task to ensure that those different perceptions and views can be held without risk. On the one hand, we have heard that some consider that our society is becoming more explicitly, even aggressively, religious. On the other hand, we have heard the view expressed with equal conviction and eloquence that Britain is becoming more secular, more materialist and more intolerant.
My noble friend Lady Massey and the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, alleged that religion is sometimes seen to cause and be at the root of conflict. I say right away that it is not belief that impacts so negatively on us or society more broadly, it is the actions and manifestations by small numbers of people who distort religious texts or hold fanatical views. It is essential that we make, understand and express those differences. It is here that the work of my department becomes crucial in building a common language, understanding and shared values between those different perceptions. I shall return a little later to what we are doing but, for the moment, let me just give an assurance to all noble Lords who spoke from the secular and humanist perspective. We fully acknowledge that the humanist tradition in this country has a long and honourable history and a positive contemporary role. I hope that the noble Lords who spoke from that perspective will rise to the challenge laid down by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Carey of Clifton, of how to promote that more positive role.
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