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I am coming round to my noble friend Lord Northbrook’s view that my amendment, which gave 12 months to issue the code, which was merely a sighting shot for the purpose of debate, is clearly inadequate. A much shorter timetable may well need to be put into the Bill because there is no sense of urgency or purpose or clarity about what is going to happen. I indicated that it was a probing amendment therefore I shall withdraw it. I would like the Minister to reflect on whether the answer that he has given is satisfactory; we will possibly come back to this on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Noakes moved Amendment No. 56:
The noble Baroness said: I will also speak to Amendments Nos. 65 and 115. These amendments concern compliance with the code of practice. The Statistics Commission and the Royal Statistical Society believe that the code of practice must be accompanied by an obligation to comply with it. The Bill is silent on this because the Government contemplate that some statistics will not comply with
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Amendment No. 56 amends Clause 10(1) to ensure that the board both prepares the code and monitors compliance, leading to compliance being specifically included in the board's annual report, as set out in Amendment No. 115. Although Clause 12 deals with the assessment of individual statistics against the code, there is nothing in the Bill that mandates the board to oversee compliance. There may be generic issues about compliance as well as specific ones related to particular statistics or statistical series. The duty to monitor compliance complements the assessment provisions in Clause 12.
Amendments Nos. 56 and 115 shift the public emphasis to compliance with the code, but the real meat is found in Amendment No. 65, which would add a new clause after Clause 10 requiring compliance with the code. The new clause requires compliance by the board, the National Statistician, government departments, the devolved Administrations and anyone else who produces or publishes official statistics. It is important that that obligation applies not just to statistical staff who produce statistics but to government departments and their Ministers.
That would make it easier for professionals to adhere to the standards that I am sure that they want to attain, because it will be in statute that compliance is obligatory. The amendment also requires consultation with the board on matters of interpretation. I do not understand why the Bill does not emphasise and require compliance. I beg to move.
Lord Newby: We have considerable sympathy with the amendments. Our Amendment No. 64 is in the group. If the earlier amendment about the difference between official and national statistics were carried, our amendment would need amending, but it makes two points. The first is of lesser importance, because it is highly unlikely to arise often. If a department feels that it cannot comply with every aspect of the code for some reason—I do not know what it might be, but in theory that is possible—it should consult the board and the board will be required to deem whether that deviation from the code was acceptable.
The second point, which would be a valuable addition, is that the amendment places a requirement on departments continually to monitor their compliance with the code and, where they find that they have breached the code, to report that breach to the board. At the moment, the board must assess whether departments have complied with the code, but where a department has for some reason not complied with the code and discovered that, it should have a statutory responsibility to report that breach to the board.
Lord Davies of Oldham: I am grateful to the two noble Lords who have spoken to their amendments, which are intended to make compliance with the code
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The noble Lord, Lord Newby, made his case, but we do not think that reporting breaches of standards of the code should be set out in legislation. Of course the board, working with all the relevant stakeholders, will develop mechanisms to engage on interpretation of the code and reporting breaches of it, but that is not a matter for legislation. The approach to reporting breaches may well be set out in the code itself, for which, after all, the board will be responsible. The board may choose to continue with something akin to the current requirement that any accidental or wrongful release of statistics must be immediately reported to the National Statistician. If a suspected breach is brought to the board's attention, or if for any reason it becomes concerned about a possible breach, it can carry out an immediate assessment. The board must publicly report its findings. That is all within the framework of the Bill and I do not think that the amendment adds a great deal.
Baroness Noakes: The Minister is developing a very interesting argument: that the board can carry out an assessment. Is it not true that the board has no power to initiate an assessment? I do not understand how that argument works.
Lord Davies of Oldham: What I am saying is that under the framework of the Bill—the code is still to be evolved—if there is a breach of the terms, the board may state in the code that it needs an immediate report to the National Statistician, which would involve it in taking action. I am asking for it to be respected that we are allowing the board to judge the code that it will produce for its operation, rather than writing into the Bill, as the amendments do, how the board should act. We expect the code of practice to be a model of good practice for official statistics and for the board to promote it as such.
We had the discussion on a previous amendment about official versus national statistics but all along I have sought to emphasise that the board has responsibility for official statistics. It will seek to bring some statistics within the framework of national statistics when that is merited. The role of the board is to promote the concepts and requirements of the code to cover all statistics. We should not tell the board in detail how to do its job, which is the main thrust behind the amendments. I recognise that they are well intended, because they are directed at objectives for which the board must surely see an obligation. We were earlier asked to ensure that the board moves with dispatch to take responsibility for the operation of its code. I sought to give assurances on that. That does not mean that we would aid the process by being overly prescriptive in legislation, which reduces the flexibility of the board and, potentially, its competence to get its work done.
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Baroness Noakes: Will the Minister address the core issue of whether departments or those who produce statistics should comply with the code? He sought to deal with the first amendment in the group, which concerns whether the board should monitor compliance. I do not think that he addressed at all whether departments and others who prepare, produce or publish statistics should comply with the code. That is the meat of this group, as I explained in my introductory remarks. Will he comment on that?
Lord Davies of Oldham: I resist amendments that specify in detail the role of the board, but clearly if the board considers that statistics are not meeting the standards of the code, it can act. The ultimate sanction of the board is obvious enough: it would include in its annual report presented to Parliament any criticism that it had voiced about national statistics produced by anyone. Within that framework, in ensuring compliance with the code of practice for national statistics, the board has clearly both the powers and the obligations under the Bill. We should leave the board to develop the code of practice against those obvious expectations.
Baroness Noakes: I think that I am being slow. The Minister has said that we should not be trying to tell the board how to do its job. Perhaps we could focus on Amendment No. 64, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Newby and Lord Oakeshott, which states:
Does the Minister accept that?
Lord Davies of Oldham: I am seeking to avoid the prescription put forward by the noble Baroness on how the board should go about its work. In consultation with and working with all the relevant stakeholders, the board is to develop the mechanisms for engaging on the interpretation of the code and reporting breaches of it. Of course, behind all that lies the obligation of the board to report to Parliament. If, within that report, it identifies a breach of the code by any official, it would put that in its national statistics. Under Clause 13, the board can reassess the national statistic if it believes that there has been a breach; it can indicate that it is dissatisfied with the quality of the national statistic and it has important sanctions for guaranteeing that its judgment is respected.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: So far I have not taken part in this debate but, having listened to the Minister trying to defend his position, I am galvanised into action. The Minister is failing to take account of the fact that the board does not regulate statistics; the board regulates the people who produce and disseminate statistics. The code will cover the performance and the activities of those who produce and disseminate statistics.
My noble friend and noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches—particularly in the amendment just referred to by my noble friend—are asking that there should be a sanction if people do not conform to the code. If the board tries to put into the code certain sanctions in the event of a failure to observe the code, surely people will say that it has no statutory authority to do that. Nothing in the Bill gives it any power to
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Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: I thank the Conservative Benches for putting the case. If the Minister feels that this is too prescriptive—we look forward to hearing why—could he simply and straightforwardly say from the Dispatch Box whether he agrees that all those who produce national statistics must conform with the code? Could he at least say that?
Lord Davies of Oldham: I do say that, but I thought that I was being pressed on the mechanisms—the potential sanctions—by which the board would give effect to that. I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. Of course, he is right to say that it is the people who produce the statistics against whom the comments are made, but the board can comment on the fact that a standard has not been achieved on a national statistic. In such circumstances, we would expect the board to work with those involved in a breach to effect change. That would occur and there would be improvement. I was merely indicating that the board has the power to report such a development if it thinks it necessary. That is a very significant sanction. All those working on the production of national statistics will know that, if they are in breach of the code, that sanction might be deployed against them. That underpins the Bill, in relation to the code and its significance, and we do not need to be prescriptive about the work of the board in line with these amendments.
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Viscount Eccles: I am puzzled why it would be in the interests of any department to want to turn one of its official statistics into a national statistic.
Lord Davies of Oldham: That is an interesting point. Departments also respond to issues of public pressure and it will be recognised that the salience of some statistics often follows the nature of political debate. To take the most obvious example in recent years, we are all aware that the absence of statistics on the number of illegal immigrants in the country has raised the political debate to an intensive level, thereby occasioning Ministers to indicate that weaknesses in such areas should be repaired. The noble Viscount will recognise that that is meant to relate to high levels of policy, to such statistics and certainly to national ones.
Baroness Noakes: The Minister has sought to respond to this group of amendments solely in terms of what should be prescribed for the board. That was not the heart of these amendments. The heart of them was to create an obligation on those who produce statistics to comply with the code and then to monitor against that. The Minister has consistently not addressed whether the Bill should contain that obligation, which, I remind the Committee, both the Royal Statistical Society and the Statistics Commission thought would be an important component of the new scheme for statistics set out in the Bill.
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Today, I shall withdraw the amendment. I should like to have discussions with the noble Lords, Lord Newby and Lord Oakeshott, on the best form of amendment to bring back on this topic on Report. Clearly, this is not a subject that we can regard as settled by debate in Committee. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Noakes moved Amendments Nos. 57 to 58:
“(1A) The Code shall include rules and principles relating to the access to official statistics in their final form prior to publication (“pre-release access”), including—
“(1C) The rules and principles for pre-release access required by subsection (1A) shall keep such access to the minimum necessary to meet the needs of Ministers.”
“( ) The Code shall include rules and principles relating to the release of official statistics, including—
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 59 and 60 not moved.]
Lord Howard of Rising moved Amendment No. 61:
“( ) the Treasury,”The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 61 corrects what can only be assumed to be an oversight by the Government. Clause 10(3) lays out those whom the board must consult in preparing or revising the code of practice. It specifies only the Scottish and Welsh Ministers and the Northern Ireland Department of Finance and Personnel. Why is the Treasury, one of the most prolific producers of official statistics, not included? This clause gives the unfortunate impression that the Treasury will be in such control of the board and have such a close hand in drawing up the code that it will not be necessary to consult it. The Minister will no doubt rush to assure the Committee that that is not the Government’s intention. Will he explain why no government departments are included in the list? I beg to move.
Lord Newby: We have an amendment in this group to insert “Cabinet Office” instead of “Treasury”, which reflects those amendments passed last week that give
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Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: The question is why the Government are stipulating that the board must consult the devolved Administrations, but no other government department, on the development of the code. The particular constitutional status of the devolved Administrations and devolved statistics makes it appropriate that we specify that those Administrations should be consulted on matters such as the code and the appointment of one member to the board.
Under the devolution settlement, devolved Administrations have responsibility for devolved matters and related statistics. By joining this legislation, they agreed that the board should have jurisdiction over devolved, as well as reserved, statistics. Given their constitutional responsibilities for devolved statistics, it is right that the legislation should explicitly specify that they should be consulted on matters such as the code or the appointment of one member.
As we have said on a number of occasions, we expect the board to consult widely on the code, including government departments. As I think has been suggested, it would be unthinkable for the board not to consult the Treasury and the Cabinet Office, as well as other government departments. That is why the devolved Administrations, but not government departments, appear in the Bill. It is in line with a theme that has emerged this afternoon—that we do not wish to over-specify to the independent board how it should fulfil its duty in developing and producing the code, other than in relation to its responsibility to the devolved Administrations.
Lord Newby: That is a remarkable statement and part of me is rather pleased. In our discussion on the previous amendment, the Minister said that it was for the board to decide how the code might address breaches. The board might put in the code that a department had to report a breach to it. Suppose a department has a Minister whom the board feels has sought to undermine the integrity of statistics for political purposes. The board decides to strengthen the reporting requirements against that Minister and is in any case fed up with Ministers behaving in that way, so it thinks, “Right, we are going to change it and we are not going to consult on it. I have to consult the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish, but they are behaving perfectly adequately, so we do not mind doing that, but we do not have to consult the Treasury, the Cabinet Office or the Home Office, so we are not going to bother”. In a way, that suits my purpose, but I am surprised that the Government feel that that is an acceptable way to proceed.
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Lord Howard of Rising: I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. However, I did not ask why he was consulting the Scottish and Welsh; I asked why he was not consulting the other government departments. This is not an attempt to specify how people carry out their duties and their jobs; as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, has pointed out, it is about specifying whom the board should consult so that it does not have the option of not consulting people, or, as I said, of giving the impression that the Treasury is so on top of the case that it does not need to be consulted. I am sure that we will want to return to this subject at a later stage, but in the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Earl of Northesk moved Amendment No. 62:
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