Previous Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page

However, the concerns need to be met. I would be more concerned if my noble friend had had neither sight nor sound of any comment from organisations representing the workforce involved. Far from that being the case, he said that a great deal of activity is being carried out by the First Division Association, which is not a negligible influence on the Government or the Civil Service. I am fully aware of the anxieties that my noble friend expressed, but we are at the most difficult point in the process and machinery is in place to meet the difficulties that have arisen.

If the move to Newport were stopped, it would create a very difficult situation. The board would be unlikely to think that that was a judicious action to take. The ONS is fitting into a pattern followed by many government departments. Therefore, the problems associated with relocation are widely known throughout government, as are the benefits. I reiterate that many of the benefits accrue in the longer term. An ONS office exists in the relocation area. Staff will find housing costs in that area a good deal less expensive than they are elsewhere. That represents for many a real improvement in their cost of living although I accept that relocation costs apply in any move. That is why we have packages in place to address that.

Concern has been expressed on all sides of the Committee about an aspect of policy that generally achieves widespread agreement; namely, that we should seek to spread government functions and Civil Service jobs more widely than has been the case in the past. However, there are always anxieties about the disruption incurred in that. Nevertheless, I have every confidence that the service will meet the requirements imposed on it by these changes. The Office for National Statistics—and, in due course, the board—needs to wrestle with anything that impacts directly on the success of its work. Neither the ONS nor the board would fulfil its duties if the relocation resulted in a deterioration in the work of our statisticians. I have no reason to believe that that will be the outcome, but I appreciate that the needs of the staff should be taken seriously. These are serious issues concerning a service that is of great importance to the nation. The ONS, and subsequently the board when the Bill becomes an Act, is obliged to ensure that this transition is effected in a way that allays the fears of my noble friend and all Members of the Committee who spoke about this issue.



2 May 2007 : Column 1147

9.45 pm

Lord Lea of Crondall: I am afraid that I did not find that a very satisfactory answer. I hope that before Report my noble friend will ensure that there is very full consideration of the outstanding questions. He said that the board would not be doing its job properly if this move resulted in a deterioration in the work of statisticians. I am afraid that he contradicted himself by implying that there is no way in which this thing can be reversed. Government doctrine has to be reversed before Report.

I thank all noble Lords for their helpful contributions. The central point that has been brought out and is now ready for drafting is that the board must have employment location as one of its central functions. In all areas of employment, that must be a central strategic function of senior management and strategic management; everyone knows that.

The central fallacy in my noble friend’s brief, which comes from the Treasury, is that it does not compare apples with apples. The first rule of statistics is that you must compare apples with apples. What my noble friend has done—he is a great friend of mine, so I can say this—is compare the minimal move of certain people out of the Ministry of Defence, or the agriculture department or whatever, with a lock, stock and barrel move of the ONS. That is not comparing apples with apples, and no self-respecting statistician would make such an error. Is the Bank of England going to move lock, stock and barrel? Of course not. The same goes for the Ministry of Defence.

I beg my noble friend to look at the three criteria, which have been carefully drafted; they are not just done off the top of someone’s head. The Treasury has not begun to deal with this remotely satisfactorily in the notes that it has prepared. As regards the idea that things are over the hump and will get better, I am afraid that the FDA says that it could all get worse. I see no evidence to support the Panglossian view that the relocation has gone through the worst. I regret to say that I will have to table an amendment very much like this on Report, unless my noble friend can think of a way of meeting half way the very logical points that I have made. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 27 [Directions]:

[Amendment No. 125 not moved.]

Lord Newby moved Amendment No. 126:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 127 not moved.]

Lord Newby moved Amendment No. 128:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 129 not moved.]



2 May 2007 : Column 1148

Lord Newby moved Amendment No. 130:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 131 not moved.]

Lord Newby moved Amendment No. 132:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 133 not moved.]

Lord Newby moved Amendment No. 134:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Baroness Noakes moved Amendment No. 135:

The noble Baroness said: I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 144 and to Clause 27 standing part, which are in the same group. Clause 27 creates the usual draconian power of direction which the Government reserve for public bodies. Our natural instinct is to oppose this power remaining in the Bill because it is the very antithesis of the independence that should be created by it. How can there be proper independence for the Statistics Board if it has to look over its shoulder the whole time to see whether it is upsetting the Government or the devolved Administrations? The Government have not made their case for this power to be established in the Bill, which is why we have opposed the Question that Clause 27 stand part of the Bill. The Explanatory Notes offer no specific assistance either. Why is the power needed and in what circumstances do the Government believe that the clause will be activated?

The Bill refers to a “serious failure” by the board to comply with its objective or to perform any of its functions, but the judgment is that of one man: the Prime Minister, now that our earlier amendments have replaced the Chancellor. Let us suppose that the board had reached a judgment on the proper calculation of efficiency in the National Health Service that showed that the Government’s policies were resulting in a massive waste in the NHS—noble Lords will recognise that this is not a fanciful example—or that the board decided that changes were needed to crime statistics which had the effect of showing the Government’s achievements in a bad light. Again, this is not a fanciful example. What is to stop the Prime Minister stepping in and saying that he considers that the board has not complied with its objective in this regard? He might argue that it would not serve the public good if public trust in the NHS or in the police were so undermined by the new statistics that it would perhaps create social unrest.

It is not only the Prime Minister who has this power, but also the devolved Administrations. They have the power to step in and exercise the functions of the board if the direction is not complied with. I believe that this is an unusual component of the

2 May 2007 : Column 1149

conventional power of direction, which is why our Amendment No. 144 would delete subsection (12). What precedents exist for such a power—not the power of direction but of step-in? In what circumstances has such a power been used in practice?

Clause 4 contains the usual, wide-ranging grounds for the removal of the chairman and the other non-executive members. Can the Minister envisage a situation where Clause 27(12) could be invoked to allow the Government to step in and act, but where Clause 4 did not allow the removal of the chairman and the non-executives? I remind the Minister that Clause 4 allows removal where a member is,

Why is that power not good enough to change the board? Why does there have to be a power of direction backed up by the power to step in as well? The Bill is weighted towards circumscribing the independence of the board. That is why we believe that if the power is to remain in the Bill, and especially if it is to include subsection (12), more parliamentary oversight is required.

It is helpful that the direction is to be laid before Parliament, but that does not amount to a parliamentary process. Accordingly, Amendment No. 135 would require a direction to be made by order. This is a modest amendment, because it requires by virtue of Clause 62 only the negative resolution procedure, of which the Minister will be aware we are normally dismissive. The important point is that it would not impede the operation of an order, if it were ever determined that one were necessary and urgent, but it would allow a parliamentary debate if appropriate. That is an essential protection for the Statistics Board.

Powers of direction are important not because they are often used—history shows that they are used rarely in the public sector—but because the threat of their use is a subtle, or even overt, bargaining counter between the holder and the object of the power. That secret weapon of control will be made less sinister if all parties know that Parliament will have a proper role if the power is used. I beg to move.

Lord Jenkin of Roding: I echo the last point of my noble friend about the power of direction standing as a very real threat over the board. It will always be looking over its shoulder at the possibility of a direction being issued under the clause. If it knows that the Cabinet Office, or whoever, must produce an order before Parliament which could be debateable—albeit by the negative procedure—that would be a considerable reassurance and a further indication of the distancing of Ministers from the day-to-day operation of the board.

Almost the first statement that the Government made about the Bill was that the board distances Ministers from the operation of the statistical system. My noble friend’s amendment would be a tangible expression of the Government’s own philosophy. I hope that we will be able to support it.

Lord Newby: On the face of it, the clause is pretty draconian. The definition of a “serious failure” could be pretty flexible. If the Minister believes that his

2 May 2007 : Column 1150

colleagues here are always reasonable and sensible, perhaps he might contemplate the fact that Mr Salmond gets rather fed up with the Statistics Board producing statistics which inaccurately reflect the future of oil reserves in Scotland. The noble Baroness is therefore right to raise serious questions about the broad sweep of this clause.

It would be helpful if the Minister gave us some idea of what the Government consider the kind of circumstances in which it might be invoked, particularly those in which the Government would not simultaneously invoke the earlier clauses about removing either the chair or non-executive directors. In many circumstances—relatively rare ones, I suspect—that would be the more logical way of doing it. If the Government wish to retain the power, having to come to Parliament to do it would serve as a break on their willingness to do so, as noble Lords have said.

Lord Davies of Oldham: I assure the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, that the clause is as far removed from the day-to-day operations of the board as it is possible to get. It embraces the ultimate sanction against the board when there is a failure of such seriousness that the Chancellor acts. In acting, it is inconceivable that there would be no parliamentary response to such a dramatic development.

The clause, which the noble Lord, Lord Newby, suggested was draconian, is actually less powerful in its impact upon the body as a final sanction than exists for the Food Standards Agency, where the Secretary of State can give such directions as he may consider appropriate for the purposes of remedying a serious failure. Similarly, Section 40 of the Environment Act empowers the Secretary of State to direct the Environment Agency on the implementation of any Community obligations or international agreements. That is what this clause does in the event of such neglect on the part of the board of its obligations under a European directive. Far from having anything to do with the day-to-day operations of the board, it is the final sanction when there has clearly been a complete breakdown of understanding of what it is necessary for the board to do such as to trigger the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s action. It is inconceivable that such an event would take place without the most widespread public debate and parliamentary response to it. We would be reflecting a very serious crisis in the operation of a board. Moreover, that board, more than the other bodies I referred to earlier, is recognised in terms of its independence and its performance—I refer to the individuals who have held the office of National Statistician and to the Office for National Statistics, which is due to be developed and subsumed into this board.

I assure noble Lords as strongly as I possibly can that this is the ultimate fall-back position necessary for the Minister responsible for the overall operation of the board—the final sanction that he or she has in circumstances where there has been a significant dereliction of duty and failure. Such a failure, being massively in the public domain, would need to be open to reporting. It is inconceivable within that framework that there

2 May 2007 : Column 1151

would not be the fullest parliamentary debate upon such an act. We are describing the position of crisis in the ultimate situation, where there is a breakdown.

One or two noble Lords indicated that they hoped that this would never arise. It is highly unlikely that a body as responsible as this board would ever get into these circumstances, but there is a need for a failsafe mechanism for the Minister who is responsible for Parliament and to the people for the discharge of the functions of the board. Therefore, a reserve power is necessary. Otherwise, it must be contended, what is being suggested is that the board could get into a very serious circumstance indeed, without a Minister having any direct responsibility for putting things right.

Baroness Noakes: We asked the Minister for examples and he gave us none. We asked him to explain why Clause 4 did not give the Minister sufficient powers. The Minister has given other examples of directional powers and I do not believe that they are as severe as this clause, which allows either the relevant Minister or the devolved Administration to step in and exercise the powers of the board. We are less than convinced that this is the right way to go. My amendment proposed a modest parliamentary procedure which would have acted as a backstop. I do not want to carry this over to Report; I would like to seek the opinion of the Chamber.

10.03 pm

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 135) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 23; Not-Contents, 27.


Division No. 2


CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Bridgeman, V. [Teller]
Bruce-Lockhart, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Crickhowell, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eccles, V.
Fookes, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Montrose, D.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Rees, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Selborne, E.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.

NOT CONTENTS

Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bilston, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L. [Teller]


2 May 2007 : Column 1152

Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

10.13 pm

Lord Newby moved Amendment No. 136:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 137 and 138 not moved.]

Lord Newby moved Amendment No. 139:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 140 not moved.]

Lord Newby moved Amendment No. 141:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 142 not moved.]

Lord Newby moved Amendment No. 143:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 144 and 145 not moved.]

Lord Newby moved Amendment No. 146:

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: I beg to move that the House do now resume.


Next Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page