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The cost of housing prisoners will continue to soar. What is the estimated cost of housing prisoners in police and court cells? The Minister has still not answered some key questions that we have posed in previous debates. Should mentally ill people be in our prisons? Is such a high remand rate to custody acceptable? Should children and women be incarcerated to the extent that their population has doubled in the past 10 years? It would be helpful to know how the Minister intends to deal with prison governors who are in dispute with his department. It would be helpful to know what emergency plans there are for dealing with prison officers’ associations, which are expressing concerns about supervising inmates in courts and police cells. Will the Minister
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Court cells are even less suitable than police cells. They are not designed to hold prisoners overnight. They are simply there for prisoners to sit in during the day while they wait to go into court. A typical court cell is little more than half the size of a Victorian-built prison cell, and when a mattress is placed on the floor the ends curl up against the wall. The cells are usually subterranean or on corridors with no natural light. Surely those inhuman standards cannot be tolerated. It is difficult to see why cramming more and more prisoners into police and court cells has previously been seen as a preferable option. The inescapable conclusion is that prisoners’ welfare and safety have been sacrificed to avoid critical headlines in tabloid newspapers.
Early release would be a sensible short-term response to the immediate crisis. In the longer term, we need to determine measures to reduce the use of imprisonment. Legislation should remove custody as an option for lower-level crime and require sentencing to take into account a prison’s capacity. That must be reinforced by sustained government efforts to persuade the courts and the public of the benefits of using prisons more sparingly. I note that governors will make wider use of prison rules on release on licence. Can the Minister indicate the number involved? Who will supervise the licensing condition? Who will monitor progress? Are we providing adequate resources to the Probation Service, which is now overstretched? The Statement, whichever way you dress it up, is a clear indictment of our criminal justice system, indicating that it has failed, and it will take a long time to restore public confidence in how we deal with prisoners in this country.
3.24 pm
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for not giving him the final version of the Statement before 2.50 pm. In the 6 May interview on Sky News I was denying that I was coming with a plan for early release. I thank him for wishing me the opposite of resignation.
Why are we not using prison ships? We have looked at them; they are more expensive and less effective than the measures that we are taking to build extra prison places. The same applies to redundant military camps and secure mental asylums. The number of people affected is 1,200, not 2,000. There was no briefing from my department yesterday. I welcome the support given by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, on the Statement.
We will use court cells as a temporary measure to get us through the current period, although I entirely accept that they are wholly unsatisfactory, as the noble Lord said. How many court cells will be used? The answer is 1,200, as I told the noble Lord, Lord
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We have debated the issues relating to children and people with mental illnesses on a number of occasions. I do not think that they are affected by the measures I have announced today.
3.25 pm
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, can my noble and learned friend confirm that releasing prisoners on licence 18 days before the expiry of sentences will pose no serious threat to the public? Can he confirm that there has been a reduction in the rate of reoffending and that he is committed to pushing this policy further forward?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, yes, there has been a reduction in the rate of reoffending. In 2005, the most recent period for which figures were recorded, 405,269 prisoners were released on temporary licence. Of those, 339 breached the terms of their licence by, among other things, committing offences. Although we are dealing with different circumstances, those figures indicate the level of risk that there may be and indicate the scale of the issue, although, obviously, I cannot give any guarantee as to what may happen regarding individual offenders.
Lord Elton: My Lords, the change in the guidelines must be substantial to secure the release of so many extra prisoners. Can the noble and learned Lord say what the change in the guidelines actually is? Where will the 500 new places be built and what category will they be? Does he not recognise that successive Governments have been the equivalent of people in a boat, baling out faster and faster to keep the water level down, which continues to creep up? Surely, the answer is to stop the hole, as the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, said in a different metaphor—which means getting at offending before it starts. Is the noble and learned Lord comforted by the fact that his department now looks at reoffending and original offending? Please, will it go to schools to reach children before they are permanently excluded and obtain adult mentors for them? He will find that that affects the offending rate considerably.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I completely agree with the noble Lord’s last remarks. We should intervene earlier with those identified as being at risk of committing criminal offences. I hope that the noble Lord read the Cabinet Office paper published yesterday or the day before that dealt specifically with that issue. Most of the 500 prison places that will start to come on stream in January will be within the curtilage of individual prisons. Perhaps I may write to the noble Lord and put in the Library the precise location of each of those 500 places, all of which will be secure, not open, prison places.
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The noble Lord asked what was the change in the provisions allowing prisoners on temporary licence to go home. The essential change is that, instead of a licence to go home being granted before the end of a sentence, each prisoner within the categories specified in my Statement will have 18 days of licence to go home at the end of their sentence. As long as it happens at the end of the sentence, the prison place can be treated as having been given up.
Lord Quirk: My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor not agree that one of the effects of increased prison overcrowding in recent years has been to put further pressure on the already struggling education provision in prisons? The latest dossier from the Prison Reform Trust reminds us that there is a strong and positive correlation between the amount of training that prisoners receive and their propensity to reoffend afterwards. Will any scope provided by the early release of some non-violent prisoners be used to increase the strength of our education and training provision for medium-term to long-term prisoners? While I agree that it would be largely pointless for short-term prisoners, it is very important for medium-term to long-term prisoners.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, one of the problems with a full prison estate is that people have to be moved around a lot. That makes it difficult for them to persist with particular courses. I completely accept what the noble Lord said about the importance of education in prisons. The steps that I have indicated today will reduce the pressure to some extent. That will reduce, to some extent, the churn around the system, which will help to some extent, but I am not claiming that it will be perfect.
Lord Richard: My Lords, with respect, I think it should probably be our side.
Is it not strange that at a time when the crime figures are coming down, the prison population is going up? One can arrive at one of only two conclusions about that: either that the crimes now being committed are more serious than crimes previously committed or that the judiciary is now sending to prison people whom it would not have sent previously. Listening to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, it occurred to me to ask my noble and learned friend whether the Opposition have at any stage suggested any sure and certain way in which the Government can accurately guess the number of people who will be sent to prison by judges. If you cannot do that, you are bound to have this sort of pressure from time to time.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am afraid that I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Henley, would say in answer to that question. The Opposition have said nothing about what their positive proposals are. Why has the prison population gone up? The custody threshold has come down in the sense that more people are going to prison and they are going to prison for longer. Also, this Government have rightly
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Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, one of the problems with overcrowding is that it involves a shortage not just of cell space—we are obviously pleased that there is now money to buy more—but of all the other services: the staffing, the education, the work programmes and so on. Can the noble and learned Lord tell us whether the Treasury has granted more money for all the extra services required to accompany the cells?
I am interested that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, will be asked to conduct a review of imprisonment; that has long been needed. I hope that it will include a review of the structure of the Prison Service. Is there any intention of delaying further work on the Offender Management Bill until the noble Lord has reported? We need a review not just of probation but of prisons; they both need to be reviewed together. Is it not better to wait until he has reported and then do both together?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the noble Lord’s point about infrastructure is important. It is not good enough to build just the extra cell places; one also has to build the kitchens to serve people, and the places in which they can work. Although our priority will be to get the new prison cells on stream, we will build those new places, where possible, where there is already some infrastructure. No, it is not our intention to ask the noble Lord, Lord Carter, to look at the structure of the Prison Service. No, it is not our intention to delay the Offender Management Bill.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I agree entirely with the point that the noble Lord, Lord Elton, made about prevention. Will the noble and learned Lord confirm that rather more resources will be applied to the young offender who continues to reoffend and costs the state a huge sum of money? More attention and extra support will be given to those young offenders as they come out of prison.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give any commitment today on resources. The report to which I referred the noble Lord, Lord Elton, indicated that all the agencies involved—local authorities, schools and the Department of Health—need to focus more resources and effort on those families in which there is a risk of offending in future.
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, just now the noble and learned Lord took credit for the Government insisting on the terms of sentences being fulfilled. Is that not the exact opposite of what the Statement will achieve? On an ancillary aspect, surely the policy of executive release, which is what this is, is achieved only by an order of the Executive overriding an order of the judiciary. How is that compatible with the rule of law?
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Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, today we are saying no to executive release but we are saying that the Prison Service, in accordance with rules that have been in existence for more than 50 years, can allow a temporary licence for someone to go out, as it did in the 400,000 cases identified in, for example, 2005. I see no conflict between that and the rule of law.
Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords—
Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords—
Baroness Crawley: My Lords, perhaps we could hear from the Benches behind us and then from the Cross Benches.
Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, given the tone of comment in the media, will my noble and learned friend confirm that today is not a moment either for panic in the country or for glee on the opposition Benches? Was not the noble Lord, Lord Elton, right to note that successive Governments have faced periodic crises over the prison population and is it not the case that there is no more need now than there has proved to be on past occasions to anticipate a tidal wave of rapists and murderers sweeping across the country? Will not rational people conclude that my noble and learned friend has provided a common-sense answer to the prisons Minister’s dilemma, and is what really matters not that a small proportion of prisoners may be released somewhat earlier than would otherwise have been the case but that the judges continue to have scope to impose prison sentences where they consider that appropriate?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I completely agree with the tone and content of what my noble friend said. This is a measured response. It permits the courts to continue to be confident that the people whom they sentence to custody in any shape or form will go there.
Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, without in any way criticising the measures announced by the noble and learned Lord, they are, as I think he candidly accepts, short-term and limited in their potential. Are the Government prepared to look at the situation in the light of two main factors? First, the prison population has, I believe, doubled in the past 16 years and the curve of the increase has sharpened. In the longer term, none of these measures can have any hope of answering that basic problem. Secondly, broadly speaking, we imprison more people than almost any other country in Europe. In the light of those two massive factors, is there not a strong and unanswerable case for setting up the most powerful authoritative inquiry into why we are at the top of that European league? Is it because our community is more evil than those of the Greeks, the Germans, the French, the Italians and others or, in our case, is the range of imprisonable offences too wide? Are there other factors? Surely that would be a wise way in which to begin tackling that basic question.
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Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the noble Lord is completely right when he says that none of the measures that I have indicated today will change what has been a fact for a considerable time: we send more people to prison per head of population than almost every other European country. I should make it clear that the number in prison has gone up considerably since 1997, when we came to power, because we have taken a number of measures—in particular, the introduction of indeterminate sentences—to ensure that dangerous offenders remain in custody until the Parole Board says that it is safe to release them. I do not think that this is the time to consider whether that is the right or wrong policy. It broadly reflects the decisions of Parliament over a considerable period. I think that, at this stage, the main function of the prisons Minister is to ensure that there are sufficient prison places to meet the demands of the courts.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, is it also true that, as a percentage of the population, more crimes are committed in this country than on the Continent? That is part of the answer to the noble Lord’s question. Is not half the answer to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, that, although crime overall has come down, the crimes that people fear the most have gone up drastically? Is it not the case that, since 1997, the rates of robbery and crimes of violence have doubled?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, some crimes have gone up, but overall the number of crimes has gone down. I completely accept what the noble Lord says about the number of crimes in this country by comparison with certain other countries where the imprisonment rate is low. I also completely accept the implication of the noble Lord’s question, that very serious offenders, violent offenders or sexual offenders—those who threaten people—need to be in custody until it is safe to release them.
Lord Cobbold: My Lords, does not the prison population relate, at least in part, to the policy of drugs prohibition? Prohibition has not been very successful. Is there any possibility of having a policy to allow for the decriminalisation, proper control and taxation of drugs, which would reduce the prison population accordingly?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: No, my Lords, I do not think that that would be the right policy. I accept the drug-driven aspect of very many crimes and very many offenders. In the Statement I referred to drug rehabilitation programmes in prisons, on which expenditure has risen from £2 million to £79 million since we came to power. I do not think the solution is to decriminalise a variety of drugs that are currently illegal. The right solution is to do as much as we can to rehabilitate those who are fuelled by drugs in the crimes that they commit.
Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, will the current pre-release procedures, which prepare prisoners for life in the outside world, be changing in any way? Will there be any reporting obligations for prisoners released under the proposals announced this afternoon?
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Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, there are no proposals to change the pre-release procedures, apart from the fact that prisoners will be released on licence if they satisfy the eligibility conditions. On reporting, if you are one of those released on licence under the guidance that I have described and if you are sentenced to a term of imprisonment of 12 months or more, your probation officer will have to make arrangements for you to report to him.
The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I welcome what the Lord Chancellor has said about the Government’s efforts to secure more mentors for young people and I acknowledge the work that the DIVERT Trust, founded by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, does to provide mentors for such young people. I ask the Lord Chancellor to pay careful attention to the ratio of young people to custody officers in young offender institutions. With 60 young people to two or three officers in a wing, it is hard for positive relationships to be established. Will he also kindly look at the supervision and development of officers in those situations? Secondly, will he consider how to keep parents near their families, siblings near each other and fathers near their children as much as possible in these difficult circumstances?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I join the noble Earl in paying tribute to the work done by the DIVERT Trust, set up by the noble Lord, Lord Elton. Secondly, yes, I shall pay attention to the ratios of young people to the officers who look after them in young offender institutions, although I can give no assurance that there will be extra money for that. I also welcome what he said about trying to focus more resources on dealing with young people who are either already in the criminal justice system or are expected to be there.
Lord Judd: My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend for very helpful and speedy Statements since he assumed responsibility. Does he agree that too many people are in prison who should not be there at all because of their psychiatric conditions and illnesses? Another major challenge is to start thinking strategically about how we can provide secure accommodation of a completely different kind that is appropriate to people who suffer from such illness. Would he not also agree that, as has been my impression from recent visits to prisons, there are a lot of excellent prison staff who are themselves exasperated by being expected to do something which they know they and the prisons are not equipped to do: caring for people with psychiatric problems?
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