Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100
- 119)
WEDNESDAY 23 MAY 2007
MR MICHAEL
GRADE
Q100 Chairman:
The BBC would not have objected to that?
Mr Grade: We agreed on the starting date. We
felt there should be some separation. I am also bound by a confidentiality
agreement of course which I was more than happy to sign about
any confidential information about the BBC's affairs that I had
gathered. That was perfectly proper.
Q101 Baroness Howe of Idlicote:
If there had been a clause saying that there should be a six month
gap before you took on any competing kind of role, would you have
accepted the job?
Mr Grade: No. I would not have accepted the
BBC job under those terms because the BBC was not my main career.
It is a part time public appointment where you hope to make your
contribution and one has a living to earn as well.
Q102 Lord Inglewood:
When you left the BBC you said, "We agreed." I was not
quite sure whether "we" was yourself and the BBC, yourself
and ITV or a tripartite agreement.
Mr Grade: It was an agreement meticulously handled
by the vice-chair, Anthony Saltz, who was the senior partner of
Freshfields, one of the world's leading legal firms, and the governors
themselves and the governance unit. I did not deal with the government
on it. I obviously informed the Secretary of State before the
announcement was made, that that was what I had chosen to do.
Q103 Lord Inglewood:
It was yourself and the BBC who agreed a plan of action once you
had announced this was going to happen. That then was presented
to ITV as being what witness statement going to occur?
Mr Grade: Yes.
Q104 Chairman:
What did the confidentiality agreement cover?
Mr Grade: Any information that I had stored
up in my mind, stuff that might be of some conceivable use to
ITV in the future.
Q105 Chairman:
When you go to ITV, you hear that ITV are going to do a programme.
You know that the BBC are going to—
Mr Grade: I was not privy to the editorial decisions
of the director general and his team.
Q106 Chairman:
Not in any way?
Mr Grade: Not in any formal way, no.
Q107 Lord King of Bridgwater:
I remember when you came and talked to us before. One of the things
you regretted was the previous handling by the BBC of cricket
and failing to bid for the cricket.
Mr Grade: Yes.
Q108 Lord King of Bridgwater:
You now go to ITV. If ITV now raise the issue—you have an
executive role—"Shall we go for the cricket?"
do you remove yourself from the discussion? You are privy to a
lot of the background on the BBC's position on this. What do you
do?
Mr Grade: The issue is price. I have no knowledge
whether the BBC is going to bid for cricket or not. I have no
knowledge what money they would be prepared to pay. I would have
no problem if ITV were interested in the cricket in the same way
that we recently bid against the BBC for the FA Cup. The real
issue is not are they going to bid or are they not going to bid.
That is a useless piece of information really. The information
that is important is how much they are prepared to pay.
Q109 Lord King of Bridgwater:
With respect, on the last occasion that was not true because some
people did not bid. The knowledge as to whether people were or
were not going to bid would have been critically valuable, for
instance, to Sky who were encouraged to pay a significantly larger
sum than they might have paid if they had known at the time that
certain people were not bidding. It is a question of what the
culture is as well.
Mr Grade: Every case is different. I do not
have any knowledge going forward of the BBC's bidding plans for
contracts which could help me at ITV to advance our position.
Q110 Lord King of Bridgwater:
But you were able to comment on it when you appeared before us
before. You had obviously discussed it with BBC executives and
informed yourself very well on it. I am not suggesting anything
improper here; I am suggesting the challenge that you face in
your new position, when the chairman says to you, "Do not
worry. Just forget about everything." You are trying to make
a success of ITV and knowledge of what the BBC attitude may be
could be extremely valuable to ITV.
Mr Grade: If I had knowledge that ITV did not
already have that I had gleaned as chairman of the BBC, I certainly
would not pass it on or I would disqualify myself.
Q111 Chairman:
Has that ever happened?
Mr Grade: No.
Q112 Chairman:
You have never had to disqualify yourself? You have never had
to leave a meeting or hold back?
Mr Grade: There are times when I have refused
to answer questions in meetings at ITV and said, "Look, I
cannot discuss that."
Q113 Chairman:
How many times?
Mr Grade: Once or twice at the most.
Q114 Chairman:
You found no difficulty in handling this situation?
Mr Grade: Conflicts are not per se a
bad thing. Conflicts become a bad thing if they are not transparent.
You can wear as many hats as you like provided you only wear one
hat at a time and everybody knows which hat you are wearing and
that you respect confidentiality. At the BBC I had to manage a
conflict with my chairmanship at Pinewood Studios. There were
very discreet and determined processes whereby papers were redacted.
I left the room on many occasions when issues relating to Manchester
and plans for studios were discussed. I have no knowledge whatsoever
that could help me in my role as chairman at Pinewood.
Q115 Chairman:
The distinction you make in all this is that you were the non-executive
chairman. If you had been the chief executive, different factors
would apply?
Mr Grade: Very different, yes.
Q116 Lord King of Bridgwater:
The difficulty is that you are now. If you move from non-executive
to non-executive, it might be a slightly different situation.
The point comes back to what Baroness Howe was saying. It is this
business about intervals. ITV will not let you move on or you
would not be allowed to go to Sky at a moment's notice. It is
in your contract. You are not allowed to resign in your first
year and you have to give a year's notice. Is that right?
Mr Grade: Yes.
Q117 Lord King of Bridgwater:
the only alternative to managing the problem of confidentiality
is at least to allow some time interval so that you are not quite
so up to date with current thinking. Your advice to us is: do
not worry about future appointments to the BBC. Do not worry about
asking a chairman or senior trustee maybe about any conflict.
Do not worry about any non-compete clause.
Mr Grade: That is not what I am saying at all,
with respect. What I am saying is it is not a matter for me to
decide. It is a matter for others to decide in the light of experience
what protections the BBC may need in these circumstances.
Q118 Lord King of Bridgwater:
You are a free individual in this respect. You are an experienced
person. You have held a job. For reasons which it is not for us
to criticise here you left earlier than your appointment proposed.
I think it was just over two and a half years, if the dates are
right.
Mr Grade: I was appointed as chairman of the
governors.
Q119 Lord King of Bridgwater:
Absolutely, but you took on this appointment and you are therefore
very well able to advise this Committee. One of the things that
does strike the Committee—and the public were surprised
to find—was that there was no non-compete clause or no interval
required before you took up what appeared to the general public
to be a very competitive position with the BBC. Do you think on
reflection that in future there ought to be?
Mr Grade: I do not think it would do any harm.
I do not think it is as big an issue as you are raising. I can
remember one particular chairman of the BBC who became chairman
of another very big listed company which had intimate commercial
arrangements with the BBC and he was chairman of both for a while.
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