Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340
- 359)
WEDNESDAY 13 JUNE 2007
SIR MICHAEL
LYONS
Q340 Chairman:
Presumably in quite a lot of the decisions, quite a lot the programmes
that go on, the Director General has carefully, to use your phrase,
reflected on them in any event.
Sir Michael Lyons: Yes.
Q341 Chairman:
So as long as the Director General carefully reflects on the programmes,
everything is okay. Is that the answer?
Sir Michael Lyons: On one level, yes, it is.
If he has really satisfied himself that this very large organisation
which he manages has done all the appropriate research, where
there is controversy, has listened carefully to those who have
opinions about whether a programme should be aired, properly distilled
the issues under examination, satisfied himself that those issues
have been fully thought through, that seems to me just about right
really. It would not be inappropriate for the Trust to satisfy
itself that he has done that given the scale of the broadcasting
role of the BBC.
Q342 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
Can I pick that point up one stage further. Given that the Trust
is now characterised predominantly as the defender of the interests
of the licence fee payer, it is clear from everything that has
just been said that the licence fee payers are not an homogeneous
group and that therefore there will be many interests amongst
that group which may be in conflict with one another? In circumstances
where a particular group of licence fee payers—and you mentioned
Jerry Springer The Opera, it is a very good example—vociferously
wish to be represented by you against the BBC's decision to transmit
something which does not reflect what they would like the BBC
to be, where does the Trust stand in relation to the interests
that it is there to protect?
Sir Michael Lyons: I think you have very skilfully
put your finger on the very heart of the issue and why the Trust
should not seek to become the Editor General in the place of Mark
Thompson.
Q343 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
But this situation could arise post hoc.
Sir Michael Lyons: Yes, it could, and I hope
there is nothing that I have said which for a moment suggests,
in my view, any homogeneity in the views of the people of this
Kingdom. I am very clear that actually one of the jobs of the
Trust is to hear (and you will see this consistently underlined
in my public statements) the diversity of views in this country
to make sure that those voices are exposed and heard, and the
job of the Trust is to seek to make some balanced judgments listening
to those different views. So, I agree with you, that is part of
the challenge of our role, but the new arrangements do provide
for this to be done much more openly, for much more to be in the
public domain about the research that we have done on audience
views, and you will see that reflected in the Trust's practice
even in the first five months. When we commission work, we do,
wherever possible, put it into the public domain.
Chairman: Let us move on to the process
of your appointment, which is one of the areas we are looking
at. Lord Maxton.
Q344 Lord Maxton:
Obviously there has been some controversy both about Michael Grade
going and your own appointment?
Sir Michael Lyons: Yes.
Q345 Lord Maxton:
Could you take us through how you came to be the Chairman of the
BBC?
Sir Michael Lyons: I applied for an open process
undertaken under the auspices of the Commissioner of Public Appointments.
DCMS was the department that was responsible for organising this
and they in turn had retained recruitment consultants Rogers Ray
Berenson to be at the front end of that process. The process started
for me in a discussion with Jill Carrick who works for Rogers,
Jill is very experienced in this field and, indeed, the reason
that she approached me was because of a very long discussion that
we had about whether I might put my name forward to be Chairman
of the Royal Shakespeare Company about two years ago. At that
time I decided not to, but she remembered that conversation and
felt that my blend of skills would be appropriate to do this job.
I then filled in the application form, I was interviewed (the
date I will come back to in a moment if you need it) by a panel,
and I can give you the membership of that panel.
Q346 Chairman:
Who was the Chairman?
Sir Michael Lyons: The Chairman, let me remind
myself, was Andrew Ramsey from the DCMS. The other members of
the panel: Sir Quentin Thomas, President of the British Board
of Film Control, Oliver Stockton, then Chair of the National History
Museum, and Sheila Drew-Smith, who was the nominated representative
of the Commission for Public Appointments. I was interviewed there
and subsequently told that I was the preferred candidate and that
my name would be going forward for Privy Council approval.
Q347 Chairman:
Obviously there has been some comment about your own political
affiliations. At no point are you telling us that you were approached
by any member of the Government, minister, to apply for this job?
Sir Michael Lyons: No, and I would find that
very strange.
Q348 Chairman:
You were not?
Sir Michael Lyons: Categorically not. Nor did
I go looking for career advice from anybody either.
Q349 Chairman:
This does happen, by the way, that people are approached.
Sir Michael Lyons: Not in my experience.
Q350 Chairman:
As it has been raised, what about your political background? You
used to be a constituent of mine in Sutton Caulfield I see, but
I do not think I would rely on your vote, would I, given your
political allegiance?
Sir Michael Lyons: Well, you know, I am a reasoning
man. I am always open to persuasion.
Q351 Chairman:
Were you ever a determined politician? Did you ever think: "I
am going to have a political career"?
Sir Michael Lyons: Nobody, I think, stands for
election, even to the smallest council in the country, without
doing it seriously, and so I regarded it as an interesting and
exciting thing to do when, as a young man, I was elected as a
councillor of Birmingham City Council. I am very proud of that
experience. It ought to me a lot about working with the public
and about working in large organisations. I have the distinction,
I think, of the only chief executive ever appointed to a council
on which they were an elected member, and that distinction is
because of the impartiality that I was able to demonstrate throughout
my career.
Q352 Lord King of Bridgwater:
You are nodding to the first bit, not necessarily to the second.
Sir Michael Lyons: Well, we can debate that
at greater length.
Q353 Chairman:
So you would not feel any problem in serving under whatever government
was in power?
Sir Michael Lyons: None at all. I have worked
for different parties. I have relished that. I have considerable
experience of working with politicians and I understand the challenges
of that, so I think I have been tested in the kitchen, you might
say.
Q354 Chairman:
What was your broadcasting experience?
Sir Michael Lyons: Six years working first with
Carlton and ITV and a short period as non executive on one of
the subsidiary boards of Carlton.
Q355 Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury:
Picking up on what the Lord Chairman said, why do you think so
many people of experience in broadcasting seem to fall by the
wayside where applying for what is now your job is concerned?
Sir Michael Lyons: It is a difficult question
to answer because I have not had conversations with all of those
folks. What you sometimes find in these circumstances is that
people who know they are not going to get the job deal with it
by telling the world they would not touch it with a barge pole.
I am clear that this job does not require someone to be a broadcaster
and, indeed, if you look back over the history of the BBC, you
could say, although I might not go quite this far, that actually
the job is better undertaken by somebody who is not a broadcaster.
I have not taken it on to become a programme-maker; I am there
basically because of my interest in the BBC's role in the civic,
economic and cultural life of this country. To come to that conclusion,
that it would be attractive to play that role, broadcasting might
be an interesting part of your experience but it would be strange
if it was the only part of your experience.
Q356 Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury:
You said earlier you were approached originally to be Chair of
the Royal Shakespeare Company?
Sir Michael Lyons: No, I was approached to be
a candidate. Let me, please, underline that.
Q357 Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury:
I am sorry. Other than that, why do you think they approached
you for this?
Sir Michael Lyons: I think it is straight forward.
I would be happy to share my CV with you and debate it. I have
run large public organisations, indeed a very large part of an
organisation successfully for seven years, 17 years in running
local authorities, but seven years running Birmingham City Council,
which as a business is about three-quarters of the size of the
BBC, so a large public organisation, I have considerable experience
in working with the public in determining what they want and exploring
it more fully in the reviews that I have done recently, some limited
experience in broadcasting—I do not want to overstate that—Chairmanship
of a group of trustees for a major arts organisation, the CBSO,
and a period as the Chair of a regulatory body at the Audit Commission.
I think that is quite an interesting blend of experiences for
this job.
Q358 Lord King of Bridgwater:
On your CV, it is very interesting, and the press notice from
Number 10 on the day of your appointment referred to your various
activities, including one or two non-executive directorships and
said, "Sir Michael has divested himself of any other significant
responsibilities and interests". I was particularly interested
in Chairman of the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra and the
Royal Shakespeare Company. Have you divested yourself of those?
Sir Michael Lyons: I am in the process, and
this was all very clear. There was a very intense due diligence
process after I had been nominated as the preferred candidate
where we went over all of my activities, I disclosed everything
that I do, whether it is paid or unpaid, and, of course, CBSO
and the Royal Shakespeare Company responsibilities are entirely
voluntary. We agreed in that process that the CBSO was a potential
conflict, and I am in the process of appointing a new Chairman—that
was announced on Friday of last week—who will be my successor.
I will stand down at the AGM. At the moment I play no part in
any discussions about the role of the BBC orchestras. In the case
of the Royal Shakespeare Company, I am not on the Board, I am
a governor, and there we see no conflict of interest and so I
will continue in my relationship with the Royal Shakespeare Company.
Q359 Lord King of Bridgwater:
It is interesting. Did the BBC commission the Royal Shakespeare?
Did they transmit them?
Sir Michael Lyons: Do you know, the time that
I spent on the Board of the Royal Shakespeare Company, which is
a couple of years ago now, I do not remember the BBC ever looking
at representing a serious line of income to the Royal Shakespeare
Company.
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