Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380
- 399)
WEDNESDAY 13 JUNE 2007
SIR MICHAEL
LYONS
Q380 Bishop of Manchester:
In terms of what you have just said, what do you think the key
priorities are, particularly in the way you will exercise your
role?
Sir Michael Lyons: The key priority in front
of us at the moment is the decision—we have used the term
"re-prioritisation"—how the licence fee will be
used over the coming six years. That gives me the opportunity
to underline what I think was implicit in your question: that
the BBC cannot look forward to a period of stability, because
the world in which it operates is changing so rapidly. In terms
of technology and markets, there are some very big challenges.
I strongly associate myself with Mark Thompson's argument that
everything we do now must be with a view of what the BBC will
look like in 2012 and the debate that will then follow. This is
not a period of complacency and stability, therefore; this is
a period of active engagement and the wisest use of the licence
fee monies over that period, and that is exactly the discussion
that we are involved in at the moment.
Q381 Bishop of Manchester:
Did you feel that the licence fee settlement was really rather
mean on the part of government?
Sir Michael Lyons: I am on record as saying—and
I think it is the right comment to make in reply to that question—we
are where we are. It could have been very different: much worse.
The BBC clearly would have liked it to be better but we are where
we are, and the best thing about that answer is that it concentrates
us on getting the best value for the monies we have.
Q382 Lord King of Bridgwater:
Could I ask a quick question, following that up? It is about the
problem of Michael Grade, which has clearly been recognised now
by the introduction of a new code of practice which contains a
non-compete clause. The thing that surprised me about it—and
I wonder whether we could have your views—is that you have
stipulated that a period of three months is the absolute maximum
for asking any member of the Trust to agree not to be involved
in what might be some competitive organisation. That seems to
me to be extraordinarily short as a maximum, because the Chairman
or Vice-Chairman can waive it anyway. Would you not agree that,
in other activities—you know the commercial world as well,
and it is certainly true of civil servants and senior military
officers—they are often put into quarantine for as much
as a year or more if they are definitely believed to be in a situation
in which a non-compete clause is applicable. Three months is practically
just an extended holiday before you start a new job—and
that is the maximum.
Sir Michael Lyons: First, let me acknowledge
that this is a matter of judgment; there is room for debate about
it. Secondly, let me acknowledge that there is a wide range of
experience in the private sector. Non-compete clauses are not
used so widely in the public sector, and there are a limited number
of other public bodies which have non-compete clauses in their
contracts for those who are publicly appointed. Three months is
not exceptional. I think that between us we could readily name
a number of companies who do not look for a longer period of gardening
leave.
Q383 Lord King of Bridgwater:
I am sorry to interrupt, but you have a number of qualifications
here which make clear that it can be waived, after proper and
sensible discussion, by the Chairman and Vice-Chairman. It says,
"or the Vice-Chairman". So it need not apply
to anybody. People can go and only if it is thought necessary
is there a non-compete clause. You have shackled yourself to saying,
"The maximum we would ever ask of anybody for whom this would
operate is three months". I do not understand it.
Sir Michael Lyons: I do not think that it would
be right to interpret it as that the non-compete clause will be
regularly overridden by the Chairman. I do not think that would
be the right interpretation for this.
Q384 Lord King of Bridgwater:
Why not?
Sir Michael Lyons: I hear what you say about
it being short, and I am perfectly happy to take that one away
to reflect on. That is, I think, what you are seeking that I should
do.
Lord King of Bridgwater: Yes.
Q385 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
Just to follow that up a little, in general there is this provision
in the code of practice that there should be a three-month period.
In relation to your own post, is there a period of notice that
you are obliged to give and, if so, what is it?
Sir Michael Lyons: I should know factually the
answer to that question. I believe that it is exactly the same,
but let me say that my intention is to serve the full four-year
term. So I have not actually explored—
Chairman: That is what Michael Grade
said.
Q386 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
Without in any way challenging your intentions, in the event that
something caused you to need to give notice, as I understand you,
you are saying you believe that your notice period would be three
months?
Sir Michael Lyons: Absolutely. However, just
as I answered to Lord King—because you have clearly raised
an issue of concern—may I take the two away together to
reflect on both, personally and with my colleagues? The only point
I would leave as I close my answer to that—though not for
a moment to suggest that you want to close it—is that the
challenge here, is it not, is not to have a set of rules which
will limit the ability of the BBC to attract talented people to
do these jobs, particularly in a climate where you ask the Trustees,
for a relatively modest public stipend, to take on a very tough
job on behalf of their fellow citizens? The more difficult you
make it, the more that you will see a problem—which we certainly
have in this country, and even more so in the US—of people
not being willing to take on civic roles.
Q387 Lord King of Bridgwater:
Notice and non-compete are two different things.
Sir Michael Lyons: Thank you.
Q388 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
They are indeed two different things but they are related to one
another.
Sir Michael Lyons: I understand that.
Q389 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
In relation to the non-compete matter where it affects the chairman,
do you think that there is a greater degree of necessity to protect
the BBC from the possibility that any chairman—not you in
particular, and especially not you—might depart the BBC
with sensitive information which he or she could not avoid having
and the BBC not be properly protected?
Sir Michael Lyons: Yes, there is a proper issue
about protection. I have already expressed my concern that we
should not discourage future candidates to the post.
Q390 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
And I agree with you entirely about that.
Sir Michael Lyons: I also believe that, in a
complicated world, we have to recognise that sometimes we end
up trusting individuals, and properly so. I think that the notion
that trust has no part to play in this would be a dangerous message
to send out.
Q391 Baroness Eccles of Moulton:
A very quick point of information, if I may. Is this code of practice
an addendum that the Government has added to the Charter, or has
it been drawn up by the Trust itself?
Sir Michael Lyons: It is a decision of the Trust.
Q392 Baroness Eccles of Moulton:
It is a Trust document?
Sir Michael Lyons: Yes.
Q393 Baroness Eccles of Moulton:
So it could be signed off by you, as it were?
Sir Michael Lyons: It could be changed by me,
yes.
Q394 Baroness Howe of Idlicote:
I am slightly surprised, quite honestly, about this three-month
period. It certainly does seem to me to be a very minimum period.
I am particularly thinking of Michael Grade. There he is, with
some sensitive information. I am sure that he will do the right
thing, but nevertheless in the public mind there may be doubts
about that. He has sensitive information. Do you not think that
it might be more reassuring to the licence fee payers—coming
back to that point again—if there was a six-month period?
Sir Michael Lyons: I have agreed to reflect
on this and to take it away. There is for me a really important
issue that underlies a number of areas of discussion and questioning
that we have had today. I believe that we need to encourage more
people to play a part in the civic life of this country. The more
we make it unattractive, implying that somehow involvement in
civic life is tainted and that it erodes one's trustworthiness,
it just discourages people. I think that there is therefore a
big issue underlying this. I am not suggesting that is where you
come from, but just that we need to get the balance right.
Q395 Baroness Howe of Idlicote:
I would slightly question the fact that this is a not very attractive
job to take on.
Sir Michael Lyons: I did not say that.
Q396 Baroness Howe of Idlicote:
No, but one you thought to have so many difficulties for people
like you that they might not wish to put their names forward.
Sir Michael Lyons: I only draw the evidence
there, from the number of people who have appeared in the press
saying that they would not put their name forward. For me it is
a very attractive job. I am delighted and privileged to have the
job, and I intend to serve my full term.
Chairman: Many of them were not going
to be selected in any event, so they would have to say that they
were not going to be a candidate!
Q397 Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury:
If you want to encourage more people to be involved, which I think
we would all agree with, do you think that it was a sensible idea
to keep on three ex-governors to automatically become members
of the new Trust, which was meant to be a new body, rather than
reaching out to others?
Sir Michael Lyons: I think that it was a very
wise decision. On the basis of what I have seen, six weeks into
post, those three individuals bring extraordinary experience.
For the continuity from governors to Trust, therefore, it was
a great strength. They are of course only three out of 12, and
I think that it was a good call. That is my view.
Q398 Chairman:
We really have run out of time. Perhaps we can consider this as
an introductory talk and we look forward to several others over
the coming months. Thank you very much indeed for coming, Sir
Michael.
Sir Michael Lyons: Can I thank you for your
questioning and the courtesy with which you have treated me. I
look forward to those other encounters. However, could I make
an offer to you—if you do not feel that is at all impertinent?
Given your interest in this area, I would be very happy to arrange
a short, by intent, seminar for you all on the role of the Trust;
so that you have a chance to explore, a bit more fully than perhaps
you have been able to so far—because I am not sure that
I have been able to convey that to you as perfectly as I might
have liked.
Q399 Lord King of Bridgwater:
With all the Trustees?
Sir Michael Lyons: With all the Trustees, of
course.
Chairman: Let us consider that and the
timing of it. Thank you very much indeed.
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