Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460
- 470)
TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007
RT HON LORD FALCONER OF THOROTON QC
Q460 Chairman:
You really did not like me saying "unilateral" but that
sounds pretty unilateral to me.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I did not like you
saying "unilateral demarche" and I think it was wrong.
I do not think it reflects the position.
Q461 Viscount Bledisloe:
It is not unilateral to say that it would be nice to have some
safeguards; I rule out the following safeguards ----?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: No. This is a friendly
arrangement, not an unfriendly arrangement. We are thinking of
having a Ministry of Justice. Yes, if you arrange certain safeguards,
that will be okay. I would not be in favour of these sorts of
safeguards. Okay, although we might want them in play, shall we
set up the working party on the basis of that? Yes, we agreed
to that and I believe, with the people of the talent we have on
the working party, we will be able to reach a solution to it.
Q462 Lord Woolf:
Are not the changes, if they go ahead on 9 May, going to involve
substantial expenditure just on matters of location, for example,
of staff and handing over of resources? Are you getting any new
resources to cover the transition from the Home Office to the
Lord Chancellor's Department?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: There will be expenses
in, for example, new signage, launching, moving staff from one
building to another, IT and stuff like that.
Q463 Lord Woolf:
The Home Office has moved to new quarters recently.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: It has, to Marsham
Street.
Q464 Lord Woolf:
The Lord Chancellor's Department is due to go to other quarters.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: We were due in 2008
to go to Queen Anne's Gate. The Ministry of Justice will now use
Queen Anne's Gate as its headquarters. Although there will be
some staff moved to Selborne House from Marsham Street—for
example, NOMS, which is one element of the change—the vast
majority of the staff will stay in Marsham Street. Yes, there
are expenses. There is no specific budget for those additional
expenses but I think they are able to be accommodated.
Q465 Lord Woolf:
Being able to be accommodated means coming possibly out of the
court budget.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I am under a statutory
obligation to ensure a properly funded court system, as you know.
Q466 Lord Woolf:
What is the bill at the moment that is outstanding for maintenance
of the courts? Is it approximately 100 million?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I think it is more
than that. Judgments have to be made from time to time as to what
is the critical thing for justice. Is it making sure that all
the maintenance is up to date or is it, from time to time, making
sure that somebody is represented in their criminal case?
Q467 Lord Woolf:
Is that the right approach to the administration of justice, that
the courts' condition can deteriorate very substantially? I can
remember the time when I was responsible for matters when courts
up and down the country were leaking.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: The position has
improved since then, as you will agree. You will also agree that
significant amounts of money have been obtained for maintenance.
You will also agree that in the deal done with the Treasury specifically
extra amounts of money were found. I cannot guarantee that I will
always be able to keep up with all the maintenance in all the
courts. Judgments have to be made.
Q468 Lord Woolf:
Do you not agree that your task is going to be all the more difficult
because of the ability of the penal system to soak up great sums
of money which have to be found?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: No, I do not think
that is right. The critical issue about the funding of the courts
is what money can be obtained from the Treasury. I do not believe
that getting responsibility for prisons and probation in any sense
weakens the ability of the Secretary of State for Justice to negotiate.
Q469 Lord Woolf:
Because of these issues, would it not have been better to take
a bit more time over it than to make a decision by 9 May?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: The decision has
been made. We are going ahead on 9 May. I believe that the detail
of it, which is very important, can be worked out, if not before
9 May then after.
Q470 Chairman:
Thank you for your usual lively evidence. This is not the last
time today when you and I are going to encounter each other.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: It is all agreement,
is it not?
Chairman: Thank you very much.
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