Examination of Witnesses (Questions 51-59)
JOAN RYAN
MP AND MR
TOM DODD
7 MARCH 2007
Chairman: Minister, we would like to
ask you a few questions about Passenger Name Record on which,
of course, we shall also be taking evidence from Baroness Ashton
of Upholland. I believe you have very kindly agreed to answer
some Home Office related questions on PNR. I will ask Lord Listowel
to open the questioning.
Q51 Earl of Listowel:
Minister, what contribution do you think this PNR Agreement between
the European Union and the United States makes to the fight against
counter-terrorism and other serious crime? Could you briefly comment
on any dangers there may be of antagonising citizens and perhaps
losing some hearts and minds in this process? Also, is there enough
being done in terms of exchange of personnel between this country
and the United States to build, not just using technical means,
but human resources effectively?
Joan Ryan: I think it is extremely important
that we can exchange this data. We should not underestimate how
important it is to the fight against counter-terrorism. The data
that we exchange under this Agreement is a most valuable source
of data for risk assessment and intelligence purposes. It helps
to determine if any passenger or passengers pose a threat to the
aircraft or to the other passengers on the aircraft or whether
they are believed to be involved with terrorism or with trans-national
criminal activity. I think it is very important information for
us to be able to exchange; it is very important that that agreement
is in place.
Q52 Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: We are
providing the Americans with 34 pieces of information; is there
any corresponding legislation for us to be provided with pieces
of information on flights into the UK or into Europe? If not,
should we have this?
Joan Ryan: We are indeed facilitating effective
transmission of PNR data between EU carriers and the US. We do
have information that we receive; we are, as you know, pursuing
a policy to establish our e-borders and within that we have a
pilot called Project Semaphore that operates on certain long haul
routes and we receive PNR data through that. We are on the road
to developing a full e-borders policy where this kind of PNR data
is exactly what we require.
Q53 Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Why
only certain long haul routes?
Mr Dodd: Semaphore is a pilot which is building
up to a full e-borders solution where we aim to collect passenger
information on all air routes into the UK. This year we will collect
data on about 30 million air movements and, for example, on PNR
we are collecting PNR on about 130 routes into the UK, including
a number from the USA.
Q54 Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: When
you get that information it goes to the Home Office; does it also
go to the Cabinet Office, to agencies that the Cabinet Office
has responsibility for, to the DCA or, if your boss has his way,
to the new Ministry of Justice?
Joan Ryan: Obviously in terms of that information
being useful we need to be able to use that information across
our law enforcement agencies, so we need to be able to work together
and to share information.
Q55 Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: You
will do that?
Mr Dodd: It does at the moment go into a joint
border operation centre in West London where immigration officers,
police officers and customs officers sit together to share the
information. The information is then routed to particular parts
of government that have an interest. For example, if there were
a CT interest then that information would go through to the security
service.
Q56 Lord Marlesford: Dr Gus Hosein
from the American Civil Liberties Union told us that data mining
for profiling has been shown to be largely ineffectual and unproductive.
Would you like to comment on that view?
Joan Ryan: I did have a sheet with me about
Semaphore which is, as I said, our pilot in developing our full
e-borders coverage.
Q57 Chairman: Could I say at this
point that on Project Semaphore or indeed anything else, if you
wanted to send us a supplementary note that would be extremely
helpful. I see you have now found your piece of paper.
Joan Ryan: I have indeed but I will of course
send you any further information. Just in terms of Semaphore—I
think you could scale it up and think about the provision of data
through PNR with the US—wanted for murder, 7; wanted for
burglary, 26; wanted for theft, 61; assault, 71; possession of
offensive weapons, 14; wanted for sexual offences, 27. These are
arrests and interventions from February 2006 to January 2007 by
offence and it continues on: wanted for road traffic offences,
108; wanted for drug related crimes, 36. I hear what you are saying
but we have evidence which shows us just how useful this is. This
policy is evidence based and I think it is as well to bear that
in mind.
Q58 Lord Marlesford: Could you tell
us what is the Commission's position as set out in the Council
mandate? Is that mandate going to be made public?
Mr Dodd: The mandate is a confidential document.
The Commission is engaged in negotiations with the Presidency
and with the USA to achieve a long-lasting PNR agreement which
extends beyond the temporary one which expires in the summer.
Q59 Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Do we
agree that we are going to get a note on Project Semaphore because
that would be really helpful.
Joan Ryan: Yes, of course.
Chairman: Minister, can I thank you and
your colleagues very much for the very helpful way in which you
have answered us. I particularly thank you for agreeing to answer
questions on a subject which I know primarily falls to your colleagues
in the Department of Constitutional Affairs whom we expect to
see in a few minutes' time. Thank you very much indeed.
| 
