Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro
1 MAY 2007
Q1 Chairman: Ambassador, may I welcome you very
warmly. We last saw you here when you accompanied Vladimir Drobnjak
in a very interesting session on the accession programme and we
are delighted to see you here now to give us an update. May I
begin by offering Croatia our condolences on the death of Ivica
Racan, your former Prime Minister. He did come here to the House
of Lords and a number of us entertained him to tea in the Lords
dining room. For him it seemed to be a great occasion because
he discovered the joys of English scones with Devonshire cream
and strawberry jam and we found him very charming and very interesting.
We are aware of what he did for Croatia in his term as Prime Minister
in steering it very firmly towards the European Union, to the
West, and we are very moved and sorry that he had this awful illness
and died much too young. I would like if I may to ask you whether
you would like to make an opening statement, Ambassador, on how
Croatia is progressing and then we will go on to some of the other
questions. We think it would be very helpful if you would like
to say a few words on where things stand on your accession.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: Thank you very
much, my Lord Chairman. Thank you also for the condolences. The
former Prime Minister Racan played an important role, in bringing
Croatia closer to the European Union but above all in bringing
the European political culture to Croatia. I am sure that nothing
will be the same in Croatia after his death. It does not mean
that things are going to be worse. I would say that while he has
left his party well prepared for the democratic processes he has
also left Croatia as his own legacy as a democratic and modern
European country. Thank you for paying attention to that sad event.
Also, thank you very much for inviting me and for giving me an
opportunity to talk about Croatia because somehow, although there
are people who believe that it is not a bad thing to be a low-profile
accession country, acceding almost under the wire into the European
Union, I think it is very important that Croatia remains in the
focus of attention of people like you who are part of the decision-forming
and decision-making process. In the final analysis, you cannot
sneak under the wire into the European Union, because it is a
legal act on which every country will be asked about. The good
thing is that not every citizen of the European Union will be
asked about that; not even French citizens will be asked about
that! As you know, Croatia has been exempted from the French constitutional
obligation to be subject to the referendum on its Europe Agreement.
In general, we are satisfied with the dynamics of the accession
process. After a year of, I would say, reluctance or problems
for the European Members to define the new terms and methods of
the accession process, the process itself has taken off quite
rapidly during the last 12 months. The screening process has finished
and we will continue to focus this year on opening as many chapters
as possible and closing some chapters provisionally. We are now
focused on fulfilling the opening benchmarks, and we expect in
the next half of this year to be able to work also on fulfilment
of the closing benchmarks. As you know, the process is not as
easy as it was for the countries of the fifth wave of enlargement.
One of the most important novelties is the benchmarking. In other
words, in order to open chapters, if the Member States decide,
Croatia is expected to fulfil the opening benchmarks. In other
words, we have to do what is required to prove that we are ready
for opening the negotiations. Also we expect that once the adoption
of the acquis on a particular chapter has been done we
will be given the closing benchmarks relating to Croatia's capacity
and capability to implement the acquis.[1]
However, we would especially like the European Commission to be
a little bit more expeditious in dealing with our part of the
task and homework. Sometimes we feel that the Commission is a
little bit slower than we would expect. We would certainly appreciate
it very much if the Member States' governments would give an incentive
to the Commission, especially DG Enlargement, to enlarge themselves
because at present only between ten and 15 people are working
on Croatia. Sometimes that creates delays which are not really
necessary in our opinion. Formally we expect very soon to be able
to open and close what I would call some very easy chapters, ie,
foreign security and defence policy, chapter 31. I am informed
that we have already been waiting six months for the European
Commission to prepare the draft common position, which for such
a chapter one would expect not to be really very difficult. Opening
and closing those apparently easy chapters would certainly give
an important boost to public morale and also to the morale of
the vast negotiating team who are doing the work really enthusiastically.
Such efforts by the European Union would be especially welcome
in the light of the frequently made noises about enlargement fatigue.
I have to say that Croatia's accession is evolving in a very difficult
and very different political climate from the one ten years ago.
We do not feel as warmly welcomed to Europe as was the case with
the fifth wave enlargement countries. Also, based on the lessons
learned from the fifth wave, our procedures are more cumbersome
than was the case before. When you combine the cumbersome procedures
with so many questions in the air about the future of Europe,
sometimes it is very difficult for the government to engage popular
support for otherwise very difficult reforms which the government
has to undertake. This is especially true in terms of deregulating
the economy while the general public is used to the benefits and
rights from the socialist times. In that regard expediting the
negotiating process whenever possible would be most welcome. I
would certainly like in this place and on this occasion to express
my government's gratitude to the British Government for the staunch
support to our accession which we have enjoyed in the last two
years or so. I am sure that you have been informed that two months
ago, during the visit of the Europe Minister, Mr Geoff Hoon, to
Croatia, a Strategic Partnership document was launched which is
basically an extremely well-focused support for our accession
process in the areas where there is the highest need of assistance.
These are, I would say at the moment, difficult areas like justice
and home affairs, competition and the environment. Also, although
it is not directly the subject of the Select Committee, Croatia
enjoys very important political and technical support for accession
to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and we expect this year,
at the latest in December, to be invited to become members, which
we find a very encouraging sign. I know that NATO and the European
Union are not directly related, but at least in terms of public
perception I think this is a step forward in joining the family
of democratic nations of Europe and in general of the West. There
are a couple of problems in relation to our accession that we
believe are not directly or in any other way related to the acquis.
One is the blocking of chapter 13 on fisheries at the COREPER
level by our dear neighbour, Slovenia, which insists on the opening
benchmark being related to the implementation of a particular
environmental agreement. We would like to see it unblocked, considering
that this question is strictly a bilateral issue and is not part
of the acquis. Also, I would like to avail myself of this
opportunity to bring to your attention the possibility that such
bilateral problems can be used or sometimes indeed abused by particular
Member States and that should be avoided at all costs. I am not
going to get into the details but there are also some other examples
of this not really very principled position.
Q2 Chairman: Can I at this point,
Ambassador, say that some of our members will have particular
questions on that that they would like to ask you. Thank you very
much indeed for that excellent introduction. I know that our colleague,
Lord Blackwell, wants to pursue the matter of the relationship
of the institutional future of Europe with your own accession,
but let me just go back to one thing you have told us which I
think is important, and that is the fact that in your view the
Commission, with its ten to 15 people, may not be, as it were,
applying the pressure that is necessary to be able to move this
forward as fast as it could go. As you know, we are on the record
and therefore I leave to you, obviously, how you want to respond
to this, but is there the impression in Zagreb that there is foot-dragging
simply because there are other issues, such as institutional issues,
which are not resolved because they do not actually want this
process to go faster than seems convenient to them? Can you venture
to answer that, but again I say you are on the record, so I leave
it to you how you answer it.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: My answer is yes.
Chairman: Thank you very much. Let us
turn to Lord Blackwell.
Q3 Lord Blackwell: Ambassador,
could I pick up this point about the relationship between your
accession and constitutional treaties? First, it would be useful
to understand how much of a constraint you see that, whether there
are ways through or whether you are dependent on some kind of
settlement on the treaty changes and how that affects the enlargement
timetable. Secondly, I would be interested in your reflections
on the various proposals in the constitutional treaty as you see
them as a new member in terms of whether there are any there which
cause you problems as a new member signing up.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: I am afraid that
I am going to disappoint you. Certainly I have my private opinion
about the Constitution and the discussions which are going on,
but there are two elements which are very important to bear in
mind in relation to Croatia's concern. One is that there are already
quite secretive discussions about the future of the treaty in
which we are not taking part. So we do not know much. It seems,
(and now I will speculate a little bit), that there will be no
convention, that it is going to be an intergovernmental conference
where we are not going to take part because we are not Members.
Once we become Members, and that is apparently not going to be
before the agreement on institutional or constitutional reforms
has been reached, we are going to be in a situation of take it
or leave it". So we shall join a European Union that will
be agreed upon among the Member States. We do have some ideas
on the future of the Commission, on where we would need to stand,
but I am sure that the agreement, once it is reached, will be
an agreement equally applicable and applied to all members, including
the new members. We are encouraged by the work of the German Presidency
on institutional reform. Our only concern is whether the European
Union will do the job on time, by the end of 2009, which is the
projected time for us to wrap up the whole negotiating process.
If not, it is obvious that we might get into a situation where
we have done all the homework and Europe is not ready for us,
which is probably not the worst thing that could happen to us
but certainly that would not be very good for Europe or for us.
We hope that will not happen and that everything will be on time.
We are encouraged by the European Parliament's resolution on Croatia
which gives firm support to our accession by 2009 which includes
the possibility for Croatia to participate in the next elections
for the European Parliament. We will see whether that happens
or not, but I think that although we are aware of the real scope
of authority of the European Parliament, we believe that the European
Parliament's resolution is an important political statement by
the representatives of the citizens of Europe. They do not raise
the question of enlargement fatigue.[2]
Also, it helps the government to develop more successfully its
own communication strategy. We can say to our citizens that we
are wanted in Europe, which we consider very important.
Q4 Baroness Thomas of Walliswood:
You have explained very clearly what your attitude is towards
the two different time schedules. What is Croatia's own date of
entry? What is the preferred date? When would you like to complete
the process?
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: We have, so to
speak, an internal European horizon and we intend to close all
our chapters if possible, and there is the political will, by
the end of 2008. Of course, we know that not everything in that
process depends only on our political will. There are certainly
daunting tasks ahead of the government and also, as I said, we
do not know and we cannot envisage what will be the pace and dynamics
of the institutional reforms within the European Union. This is
our goodwill and we are doing our best to maintain that dynamic.
I do not know whether I should report the technical progress that
we have made in the last year but I think what we have done is
pretty impressive.
Q5 Chairman: But presumably,
Ambassador, you need to complete the negotiations by the end of
2008 if you are going to be in in time for the European parliamentary
elections in 2009.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: Yes.
Q6 Chairman: That is still
cutting it pretty fine.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: It is one and
a half years ahead.
Q7 Chairman: You said a little
earlier that you think that by the end of 2009 you will be completed.
You need to be in before then if you are going to be able to get
your full delegation in, not just as observers but into the European
Parliament.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: The basis for
our optimism is that we have to fulfil a relatively small number
of the opening benchmarks in comparison with the number of chapters
that have so far been digested by the European Commission and
the Council. We have so far received nine invitations to open
the chapters with no opening benchmarks, which is quite encouraging.
Also, we expect this year, and the Commission deems that to be
possible, to open all the chapters of the accession process.[3]
Q8 Chairman: That is pretty encouraging.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: Yes. We believe
that in 2008 we can show our capability to adopt the acquis
and implement it. As I said, this is our internal horizon.
Chairman: I would like Lord Marlesford
to come back briefly to the question of enlargement fatigue which
we have touched on to see if we can pin this one down.
Q9 Lord Marlesford: Ambassador,
you have already heard quite a lot on this question of enlargement
fatigue but I wonder if you feel able to be at all specific in
relation to the attitude to Croatia in other Member countries.
Are there particular obstacles in any country that you would like
to draw our attention to? Secondly, are the people in Croatia
as enthusiastic as they were? Is enthusiasm waxing or waning for
membership?
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: That is a good
question. There is not a single country that causes an obstacle
or threat in principle to the Croatian accession to the European
Union. There is not any country that is opposed to our accession
and our eventual membership.
Q10 Chairman: And that includes
Slovenia?
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: That is true of
Slovenia. I have to say that Slovenia is one of the most fervent
supporters of Croatia's accession. The bilateral problems we have
with Slovenia do not prevent Slovenia from being on the other
hand extremely helpful in technical terms in assisting us in other
areas. We do understand that also Slovenia has, as well as Croatia
and the other countries, their own internal politics and policies
and sometimes there are internal pressures to do this or that.
No, I would say that every single EU Member is favourable to Croatia's
accession. Even those Members which sometimes have hiccups about
the Turkish accession have no doubts about Croatia. There is a
common line to all EU Members and that is that the accession is
going to be very demanding and that only the countries which are
completely ready for membership will join the European Union.
Again, that is the difference when compared with the lucky 12"
who joined the European Union before. What was your other question?
Q11 Lord Marlesford: The other
question is, internally in Croatia are there particular sections
of the population or interest groups which are beginning to have
doubts?
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: Of course there
are. I would say that, as the timing of the start of our accession
is different, as Europe has changed, the general atmosphere and
circumstances of our accession are significantly different too.
For example, a very important element that was highly motivating
for the population and citizens of the eastern European countries
that belonged to the Eastern Bloc was the identification moment
with the European Union. It is not really as important in Croatia
nowadays. I would say that that romanticist element of pro-European
policy is much weaker in Croatia than it was in eastern Europe.
Sometimes the Euro-scepticism in Europe has a bad echo in Croatia.
The support for the European Union however is now steadily above
50 per cent and the closer we get to the European Union and the
more successful we are in our negotiations, the more that support
will grow.
Q12 Lord Geddes: Ambassador,
could I follow up that last point? In the report of the Committee
on Foreign Affairs of the European Parliament in paragraph 7 it
states very bluntly that in their opinion there is flagging support
for EU accession in Croatia". From what you have just said
you seem to disagree with that opinion.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: I repeat that
already for almost a year support for the European Union has been
above 50 per cent. Two years ago we were at 36 per cent, so the
support is growing. I am sure that, for example, next month when
we see the polls, the percentage of supporters will be higher,
not least for the reason I mentioned before, that is, the resolution
by the European Parliament which certainly is going to boost by
a couple of per cent support for the European Union. Again, the
matter of identity is not as important as the prospect of a better
life and a better economic situation for the country after we
join that will attract people to the European Union.
Chairman: As we have mentioned the Foreign
Affairs Committee and Hannes Swoboda's report, Lord Tomlinson
has a question on this.
Q13 Lord Tomlinson: Ambassador,
can I be fairly direct? You have talked about opening and closing
of chapters almost mechanistically and yet, of course, some of
those chapters are going to be somewhat more difficult than that.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: Oh, yes.
Q14 Lord Tomlinson: I would
really like to hear from you concerning your response to the somewhat
critical report of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the European
Parliament where Hannes Swoboda was the rapporteur. They seem
to have fairly stringent criticisms concerning anti-corruption
measures, the development of transparency in the judicial system,
and I ask you to juxtapose those criticisms with the rather ambitious
target of having resolved all that by the end of 2008 in order
to participate in the 2009 elections. It is barely 21 months away,
and when you add to the criticism the remarks that they make concerning
the somewhat ambivalent attitude that they see concerning the
International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia it seems
that in this area of judicial co-operation, anti-corruption measures
and persuading the citizenry in particular to co-operate with
the tribunal there seems to be a lot to do. It is going to make
the closing of a chapter, I think, rather difficult. What do you
think?
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: I fully agree
with you. It is going to be difficult, especially closing that
chapter. However, this is not something that the Croatian government
is sweeping under the carpet because it is unpleasant. On the
contrary. But before I come to the judiciary and the problems
we face with the weak state of our judiciary—with regard
to the ICTY there is nothing outstanding on that particular matter
between the Croatian government and the International Criminal
Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. I do not know exactly what
you refer to, but there is nothing. I would say that our relationship
is almost idyllic; it is just fine.
Q15 Chairman: Could I just
clarify that? What you are saying, Ambassador, is that when General
Gotovina was sent to the tribunal and you got a clean bill of
health from Carla del Ponte that was not just over him; it was
across the board, that that meant that there were not any other
outstanding issues with the tribunal on that point?
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: No, there are
no outstanding issues. As you know, we have four former Croatian
generals indicted. They are all available to the court. Three
of them are in Zagreb free and every now and then they travel
to The Hague, and General Gotovina is in the Scheveningen Prison
awaiting trial. Also, a number of trials have been transferred
to the Croatian judicial system which will act in accordance with
the rules of the ICTY and there is no problem of any kind between
us and them. As for the judiciary, corruption and organised crime,
these are real problems for the Croatian government and for Croatian
society and the reform of the justice system is definitely a top
priority of the Croatian government. It is fundamental for the
overall internal development of our country, both economically
and politically. During the last three years the government has
undertaken a very well defined action plan directed to the formal
reform of the judicial system which is already giving results.
Only two weeks ago our Justice Minister informed the European
Parliament of everything that is on the way and results are not
bad, I would say. We have inherited an overgrown, very inefficient
judicial system which is now being put in order. The consequence
is that, for example, we have had an enormous backlog of civic
cases, one and a half million. Now that has been reduced significantly,
almost by half, due to the reforms undertaken. We have had a decrease
in unresolved cases in the last two years of 30 per cent. A cancer
of our judicial system, the land registry, which also prevents
smooth investment in Croatia, is being resolved. By now we have
resolved more than 60 per cent of the unresolved cases and we
are catching up with putting the land registry and the property
registry in harmony. We believe that by the end of this year everything
will be harmonized. So all the documents are going to be accessible
to citizens via the internet. The Supreme Court of Croatia is
working heavily also on reducing the number of unresolved cases.
The Ministry of Justice has been developing an integrated case
management system. We have taken a World Bank loan on for that.
Financial resources have been taken from the CARDS programme and
so on. We have probably the largest number of courts in relation
to the number of inhabitants in Europe but still not sufficiently
effective. The process of rationalisation of the network of courts
is under way. A lot has been done and a lot will be done to make
our judiciary effective and also to make our law enforcement effective.
As far as corruption is concerned, now it has been tackled like
never before. A special government's action plan has been devised
and special bodies have been established. Last year the number
of people prosecuted for corruption increased by seven per cent
and there is an upward trend. What is more important as a consequence
of the government's public action and communication strategy,
the number of citizens who are reporting corruption cases has
grown in one year by 60 per cent, which means that this is not
just a political ploy; this is an ongoing process, so I am confident
that by 2009 we are going to make it. I have to say that the level
of corruption in Croatia is not really abysmal, so I do not think
we shall need five years or even three years to tackle that in
the right way.
Q16 Lord Tomlinson: The only
point I would make is that there is some criticism in Hannes Swoboda's
resolution about the International Criminal Tribunal for the former
Yugoslavia. I just suggest you have a read of it because it is
tangential criticism; it is there, but if it is not justified
then obviously you have got a public relations job to do with
the European Parliament.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: Although our co-operation
is full we still have the obligation to continue co-operating,
so it is an ongoing co-operation. I have not seen or heard about
any complaints by The Hague.
Chairman: Okay, and, of course, it is
a question of how long the ICTY stays in business too. It is not
over yet, is it? In the five minutes that are left to us I would
like to ask Lord Roper whether there is anything he would like
to follow up on in relation to bilateral relations.
Q17 Lord Roper: We have already
referred to the bilateral dispute with Slovenia over maritime
areas and fishing rights and suggested that this is already proving
a block at the COREPER level for the opening of the chapter dealing
with fishing. What is the position in terms of those bilateral
negotiations and what prospect is there of your coming to a solution?
We also have the important point that, of course, in the first
half of next year we will have Slovenia as the Presidency of the
Council of Ministers and in terms of your completing your chapters
by the end of 2008 those are rather an important six months.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: We really do look
forward to the Slovenian Presidency. It is always good to have
a friend in the Presidency. As far as the maritime delimitation
dispute is concerned, we have been negotiating quite intensively
for 14 years with Slovenia on that small question and we have
been unsuccessful. I myself was participating in those negotiations
for a long six years in good faith and the result is—nothing.
I believe and my government firmly believes that the time has
come, after we have exhausted all the bilateral possibilities,
to approach an international arbiter. We have formally informed
the government of Slovenia about our willingness to do so. We
are ready to start negotiations on the arbiter, negotiations on
defining the ways of arbitration and so on, and we are ready also
to stand before our parliament and propose a resolution under
which Croatia will accept as compulsory the ruling of such arbitration.
This is the position. We are still waiting for the government
of Slovenia to say, Okay, let us do that". About the reluctance
of Slovenia to approach independent international arbitration
you should ask the Slovenian government.
Q18 Lord Harrison: Ambassador,
in the light of the earlier comments you made about Minister Hoon's
two months ago visit to Croatia for signing the strategic partnership
on JHA matters, the environment and competitiveness, are there
other items where you think our two countries could combine together,
not only for the purpose of promoting the accession of Croatia
but also those other parallel activities—academic, cultural
and so on, where we might usefully work together?
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro: Thank you very
much for the question. I think there is no area where working
with Britain would not be beneficial for Croatia, but I am very
much aware that we should also find an area where working with
Croatia would be beneficial for Britain. I am sure that, rightly,
the British Government has recognised the great potential that
Croatia's accession to the European Union and NATO can wake up
in our neighbours. As Ambassador I would certainly like to see
more direct co-operation between Britain and Croatia with our
neighbours, our south-eastern neighbours in the Western Balkans.
I deeply believe that our knowledge of the region, our experience
of the way our neighbours are only about to undertake and the
British knowledge and expertise put together can do a lot of good
in the region.
Q19 Chairman: I am afraid
that we will have to close it there because we have another witness
coming on the Annual Policy Strategy. I would like to thank you
very much indeed, Ambassador, and I take very much to heart, and
I am sure the Committee does, your final comments because the
accession of Croatia is going to be a very important building
block in the creation of a stable Western Balkans region. I think
I can speak safely on behalf of all of us in saying that there
is no great enlargement fatigue around the table here. There may
be some hesitation about some countries but there is not much
hesitation about yours and so we wish you all the best and if
you can get it done by the end of 2008 that will be a great triumph
for you and I am sure it will be of great benefit to the European
Union as well. Thank you for answering our questions so frankly.
We will send you a transcript of this so that you can correct
it and it will be published. We look forward to seeing you again
on some future occasion.
His Excellency Mr Josip Paro:
Thank you very much.
1 On reading this transcript, the witness wished to
add So far we are coping quite well." Back
2
On reading the transcript, the witness wished to add: It cannot
be an argument for slowing down the accession process." Back
3
On reading the transcript, the witness wished to add Much will
depend also on the Member States". Back
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